The DOUBLE STANDARD

[jgcable]

JG, you've got some good points, but...

The true pro guitarist (student of the guitar) is constantly looking over his shoulder and seeking out the competition. is not one of them. I rarely go to a club unless I have a gig. I see enough other bands that way, and very few local guitarists impress me. Sometimes, I'll hear something cool that a band is doing at the rehearsal studios and I'll give it a listen.

But really, my time is better spent working on my own chops or taking care of non music-related stuff rather than listening to local bands.

If that works for you, no problem. We all have different priorities and approaches. But I think it's too broad a generalization to say everyone who wants to accomplish X MUST do Y.

But I feel like I've gone off from the original topic. I've only gigged with a female guitarist once, and since it was a punk band, nobody was calling her the next coming of Dimebag or anything!

Thanks for the response. Again.. good points.
You would be surprised how many pro's go to concerts, clinics and informal jam sessions all the time. Look at Hendrix for instance. He recorded hundreds of times at places that nobody knew about. Small clubs, small sessions.. always looking to hook up and learn from other players. Look at Randy Rhoads. He was a student of the guitar. He would seek out teachers in any town he was in. He was very much in tune with that other players were doing at the time.
EVH too. Do you really think he locked himself in a room somewhere and came up with that style? Nope.
The benefit of being a famous pro is the luxury to go to concerts anytime you want with full access.
Ever check out a championship boxing match? Look in the crowd. Most of the first few rows are filled with other champion boxers.
Some are there for entertainment. Most are there for professional reasons.

[jgcable]

If you throw away musicianship out the window, on the merits of pure technical skill, you're right. Most girls who are that talented choose to play more refined and more respectable music than metal, and actually make decent money playing in a symphony or teaching than playing in a metal band.

And your pure criticism of females not being good enough for you is why more girls don't play. They're basically shunned from the guitar world and discouraged. So you're helping to fulfill your own prophecy by your position.

Encourage more girls to play guitar, and you'll have more girls playing better. Keep complaining on why they can't shred like your favorite wank master, and all you'll do is turn them away from playing.

If you look at the average male shredder, can you blame women for not trying to become metal heroes?

Anyways, you sound really bitter. Perhaps you should have a few long sessions with a qualified therapist.

Let me adress some of your comments.

#1. Yes, I am bitter. Got me on that one!

#2. I never said females aren't good enough lead players for me. I am saying that a girl doesn't have to be great to be called great and a guy does. I can't figure out why that is.

#3. Women don't need any help from men in regards to making it in any form of music. Its not my charter to make girls feel good about playing so that other girls will play.
When I go to a metal show all the girls are there all metal'd out and rocking their pretty little asses off. How come they can do it by themselves in the crowd (or backstage...lol...) but when they get up onstage with a guitar it now becomes my responsibility to make them feel good and to encourage them. Thats crap and you know it.

There are plenty of rock chicks out there who kick major ass in every metal way. I can name a ton of them. We have a few of them on this board. They make no excuses. They just kick ass.

What I am talking about is when you take a little hottie like Orianthi and throw her onstage with Santana. All of a sudden she is legit and people are saying she is an incredible player.
If she is an incredible player than so is John Mayer, John Macenroe and Kiefer Southerland.
Most of you guys think Aldo Nova sucks (or sucked). I will tell you that he is 10 times the player that any of those "incredible players" are.
I have also heard harsh criticim regarding Ace Frehely and Jimmy Page.
Guitar players have stated many times that Ace Frehely is too simple and basic and that Jimmy Page is really sloppy live.
Those statements to me are almost too painful to repeat.
Its almost like male lead guitar players kill the things they love the most.

[skorb]

Jimmy (one of my all time gitfiddle heroes) was only sloppy live when he was gacked on H.

otherwise he was a perfectionist. early Zep bootlegs when he was not strung out, vs. late 70's boots when he was, tell the story.

[guitarsjb]

Ok, I have read..and waited..and thought..before doing this..here is my take on it.
John you are right..mostly. The other guitarist in our band kicks my ass (which has forced me to practice more and try to "hang" with him) I only see this as a good thing. But...here's my case. I am NOT a lead player. I am a damn good rythym (sp?) player. Well, the new guitarist decided to give me more of the spot light, and we share the leads..I am NOT ready. I know this because I hold myself in the same regards as the guys..who can really play. Anyhow..I AM learning..and getting better, but the stage is not the place to "learn"..
Take last Fridays show. The first song that I solo on, I am getting very comfortable with, and I pretty much nailed it. The 2nd song...I butchered the solo, the third...was even worse, the 4th him and I share..and it was OK.
After the show..I had several people come up and tell me how freaking great I was. Bullshit. I am not a good lead player yet. Period. Will I be? You bet..someday. Because I am a chick, I have people falling over me, raving about my 1/2 assed attempt at a lead.
I had 2 honest people at the show. Other players for other bands. One guy told me to keep working on it..I kick ass, but could be much better. Very honest.
The other guy just raved on Steve (the other guitar player) and said my rythym chops were solid as a rock. Also a very honest assessment.
It's no ones job to make me feel good while I am on stage. I am there because I want to be, I love what I am doing, and I am having a blast!!
But yeah, I think a lot of the props I get at the end of the night are because I am a chick..
Guys can be groupies too ya know

[charvelguy]

actually.. I recall Yngwie used to always say "stop listening to other guitarists!, stop listening to me!" He only listened to Bach, or Classical.

I think he was encouraging people to find themselves. Yngwie was a bit of a hypocrite in that respect because ya know he listed to other players.. he was just wanting to always put himself on top of the neoclassical scrap heap as 'the guy' .. which.. he did combine alot of elements and backgrounds to make it his own. In that respect alone he was genius.

He's given props to others in recent years like Ty Tabor & Kings X, but I've heard him slightly dis Gilbert as a neoshredder and outright slam the dude from Pearl Jam saying he needed lessons.. such as it is.. he's Yngwie, he can get away with offending antics and remarks.

The deal is that Pros, active pros typically do not rest on their laurels.. they strive to keep active, stay in the spot enough to promote the mealticket and keep the chops up to caliber.

[jgcable]

Ok, I have read..and waited..and thought..before doing this..here is my take on it.
John you are right..mostly. The other guitarist in our band kicks my ass (which has forced me to practice more and try to "hang" with him) I only see this as a good thing. But...here's my case. I am NOT a lead player. I am a damn good rythym (sp?) player. Well, the new guitarist decided to give me more of the spot light, and we share the leads..I am NOT ready. I know this because I hold myself in the same regards as the guys..who can really play. Anyhow..I AM learning..and getting better, but the stage is not the place to "learn"..
Take last Fridays show. The first song that I solo on, I am getting very comfortable with, and I pretty much nailed it. The 2nd song...I butchered the solo, the third...was even worse, the 4th him and I share..and it was OK.
After the show..I had several people come up and tell me how freaking great I was. Bullshit. I am not a good lead player yet. Period. Will I be? You bet..someday. Because I am a chick, I have people falling over me, raving about my 1/2 assed attempt at a lead.
I had 2 honest people at the show. Other players for other bands. One guy told me to keep working on it..I kick ass, but could be much better. Very honest.
The other guy just raved on Steve (the other guitar player) and said my rythym chops were solid as a rock. Also a very honest assessment.
It's no ones job to make me feel good while I am on stage. I am there because I want to be, I love what I am doing, and I am having a blast!!
But yeah, I think a lot of the props I get at the end of the night are because I am a chick..
Guys can be groupies too ya know

I wasn't going to bring your name into it Jeri but I was tempted.
I was going to say that you are the perfect example of what a chick metal guitar player should be. No bullshit. Just straight up stuff.
I know several local girls who play guitar and we talk straight up. One of them is a very good soloist. She talks the talk and walks the walk.
We talk about guitar stuff all the time. She doesn't like the condescending attitude she sometimes gets too. She is a huge fan of Steve Vai.
For instance.... one night she was just not on point. Her sound was off and it threw her entire performance off. We have all been there.. right?
Well.. after the 1st set she had a bunch of people come up to her and tell her that she played great but the other guitarist sounded like crap. She got the props undeserved in her opinion and it pissed her off.
Her attitude is.. if I suck.. well.. I suck. If the band sounds like crap and you are a musician and a friend of mine in the crowd... TELL ME DAMN IT.

I know another girl who is smokin hot and is just a horrible player. So many people have told her that she is incredible (mostly guys who want to date her) that she actually believes it. She struts around like a guitar god. She goes to music stores and actually thinks she is putting on a show and a clinic for other guitar players when actually they are all admiring her "assets" and hoping she forgets that she has a short skirt on when she is sitting on the stool attempting to play.
Now... take that same scenario and plug in a guy. 1st of all.. he would never think he was incredible because nobody would ever tell him that.
Secondly, he would never wantingly play in public until he felt he had the chops for it. Heck.. there are alot of dude players who... because they don't think they are good enough... never get a chance to play live.
Why?? Because they haven't been fed a plate of bullshit.
There is a double standard. Because there are less female soloists... they get a break when somebody reviews their playing ability.
I would think that chicks should be breaking down the doors with ripping shred fests. What better way to flex your metal muscle than to rip into a killer guitar solo. Its the best thing about playing guitar.
Everybody wants to be a lead guitar player. EVERYBODY. If they tell you otherwise.. they are full of shit. Rhythm playing is fun too. I really enjoy it but I won't bullshit you and tell you that its more fun than nailing a killer guitar solo. Its not.

I have never met you but I suppose you both have similar attitudes.
I would rather have somebody tell me constructive stuff than try to pump my head up with bullshit.
I have critiqued your band several times. You know where I am coming from. Its not mean spirited. Its all good. We.. afterall.. are all musicians.
I think your band kills. I'm not into that singing style but thats my problem. It must be a generational thing!

Playing is supposed to be fun. I take lead guitar playing way more serious than most people. Its a curse that I have lived with since I was 10.
I constantly was pressured into being flawless when I was a "child prodigy" on piano at the age of 10. When you play classical piano its an entirely different game. Everything has to be PERFECT and FLAWLESS. There is absolutely no room for creativeness or interpretation.
I think that all those years of recitals and performances when I was younger really put some deep scars in the way I connect to other musicians. If you ever saw the movie Rock Star.. I am Mark Wahlburg.
I lost more friends because of music than you could ever imagine.
Luckily for me.. I am in a band where the other 3 members are total perfectionist players. The first band I was ever in was with Mike Mahtevitch from Steelheart. He was our lead singer. That was around 1977-78. It took until 2005 to hook up with musicians that I could relate to.
Anyway.. I appreciate your comments and your video's of your band.

[jgcable]

actually.. I recall Yngwie used to always say "stop listening to other guitarists!, stop listening to me!" He only listened to Bach, or Classical.

I think he was encouraging people to find themselves. Yngwie was a bit of a hypocrite in that respect because ya know he listed to other players.. he was just wanting to always put himself on top of the neoclassical scrap heap as 'the guy' .. which.. he did combine alot of elements and backgrounds to make it his own. In that respect alone he was genius.

He's given props to others in recent years like Ty Tabor & Kings X, but I've heard him slightly dis Gilbert as a neoshredder and outright slam the dude from Pearl Jam saying he needed lessons.. such as it is.. he's Yngwie, he can get away with offending antics and remarks.

The deal is that Pros, active pros typically do not rest on their laurels.. they strive to keep active, stay in the spot enough to promote the mealticket and keep the chops up to caliber.

Yep. It actually pissed me off when Yngwie would claim he didn't listen to other guitar players. Bullshit.
Well.. maybe he didn't listen to them but I am sure he was totally aware of them. Especially the ones that were mentioned in the same sentences as him.
With that said.. Yngwie would be considered an incredible guitar player. At least he is to me.

[zeegler]

Jewel has wicked bewbs!

[Endrik]

I am asking this question to other guitar players. It is something that has always interested me. I could care less what the crowd thinks. I have been to shows where the local hack who couldn't even tune his guitar has won battle of the bands because the crowd loved him and the out of town guitar virtuoso went home in last place because nobody knew who he was. The crowd are all idiots. I have done enough shows to know that most of the people in the crowd have no sense of good guitar playing.
What the local club crowd likes.. and what is actually great guitar playing.. is 2 completely different things.

this is one of the reasons you didn't made it. you don't have any respect for the audience... they are not THAT stupid as you are saying.
these people are the ones who buy albums and who attend concerts, how the heck you can archive stardom when you make music for other musicians.

I've never cared what the other musicians think, I started to play because I wanted to impress chicks and to be a badass rockstar. The ONLY reason I practiced to get chops is because I wanted to be versatile musician and having the capability to play in all the different styles. I didn't developed myself to compete with other guitarists.

Now.. onto your statement that pro's don't go see local talent or other pro's play and that they don't mentally critique that persons playing.
That couldn't be farther from the truth.
The true pro guitarist (student of the guitar) is constantly looking over his shoulder and seeking out the competition. Why??? Well for one thing you always need to see what style is selling in the current climate. Also.. most pro's are human musical sponges and take anything and everything they can from everything they hear. The journey to becoming better never ends for a pro. Its important to know what other players are doing and what other players are playing. In the business world its called networking. Executives do it. Guitar players do it.

Sorry, I don't belive a word you are saying. True pro guitarists doesn't seek out the competition. A Pro is a pro because he doesn't compete but creates music.
Plese tell me what BIG NAME players and producers go to clubs with the purpose to see shredders. I don't know ANY.
Pro players are old and have developed their style LONG LONG time ago, they don't have anything to learn from small club shredders, they learn from REAL musicians instead.
And the talk about knowing what other players are doing..... sounds like a typical trend following wich you guys hate so much.
PRO players are very aware of what's happaning in the music but they go to real concerts.... stadiums, arenas etc. where bands play who actually count. Bands who play in small clubs don't interest them, because those bands obviously are nothing in the big picture.

[xenophobe]

What I am talking about is when you take a little hottie like Orianthi and throw her onstage with Santana. All of a sudden she is legit and people are saying she is an incredible player.

Watch this. I mean really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7leWjpyBx5s

She's clean, articulate, has good tone and is playing with taste, and for a live performance, it sounds great. Please watch it and disagree with me that this isn't a 'professional' performance.

I'm not saying she is an incredible player, but she's damn solid. Easily better than half of the men playing shows at your local club. Why shouldn't she be thought of as a competent player?

And besides what she looks like, I quite like this tune more than what I hear most women playing on guitar and if she had a jazz fusion type album I would probably purchase it.

[jgcable]

Watch this. I mean really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7leWjpyBx5s

She's clean, articulate, has good tone and is playing with taste, and for a live performance, it sounds great. Please watch it and disagree with me that this isn't a 'professional' performance.

I'm not saying she is an incredible player, but she's damn solid. Easily better than half of the men playing shows at your local club. Why shouldn't she be thought of as a competent player?

And besides what she looks like, I quite like this tune more than what I hear most women playing on guitar and if she had a jazz fusion type album I would probably purchase it.

I never said she wasn't solid. I am just saying that in "true guitar god" standards.. she isn't incredible.
Steve Vai is incredible. Paul Gilbert is incredible. Uli Roth is incredible...

[xenophobe]

I never said she wasn't solid. I am just saying that in "true guitar god" standards.. she isn't incredible.
Steve Vai is incredible. Paul Gilbert is incredible. Uli Roth is incredible...

Okay, you keep going back and fourth, saying one thing, and then contradicting it later, sometimes even in the same post.

You're not being consistent, and that's bullshit.

What I am talking about is the average club players. Take a girl for example that you see in a local club in a metal band.

Say she can play the basic Ace Frehely type pentatonic scales. She is usually considered great. She can play the basic.. and I mean basic blues riffs and be considered incredible.

AND most of us had or have dreams of making it big... then.. why aren't there more female versions of Vai, Gilbert, Malmsteen and Petrucci?

What I am really talking about is a guitarists opinion of club players. An average female soloist gets mad props just because she has the courage (or the rarity) of playing lead guitar.

I am talking about great lead guitar playing and how a women can be a marginal player and be considered great by other guitar players and a guy needs to be friggin Malmsteen.

I am saying that a girl doesn't have to be great to be called great and a guy does.

Playing is supposed to be fun. I take lead guitar playing way more serious than most people. Its a curse that I have lived with since I was 10.

I could respond to each point, but I'm not going to bother...

So exactly what line are you trying to draw? Better than the average club player, a 'guitar god', or better than marginal player?

The clip I posted is 'better than the average (male) club player', definitely beyond marginal. But it's not 'godlike', so it doesn't meet your wavering threshold of excellence? Umm... yeah.

The true pro guitarist (student of the guitar) is constantly looking over his shoulder and seeking out the competition.

I would think that chicks should be breaking down the doors with ripping shred fests. What better way to flex your metal muscle than to rip into a killer guitar solo. Its the best thing about playing guitar.

Everybody wants to be a lead guitar player. EVERYBODY. If they tell you otherwise.. they are full of shit.

Okay, here's where you're trying to apply male testosterone and ego to a girl... perhaps too many 'guitar gods' tried too hard to look like women when you were young and has led you onto the path of gender confusion. Trying to apply this logic to the female mindset is just wrong... on many levels.

[hippietim]

I never said she wasn't solid. I am just saying that in "true guitar god" standards.. she isn't incredible.
Steve Vai is incredible. Paul Gilbert is incredible. Uli Roth is incredible...

I agree with you but you have to admit she is way better than Santana.

[hippietim]

Watch this. I mean really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7leWjpyBx5s

She's clean, articulate, has good tone and is playing with taste, and for a live performance, it sounds great. Please watch it and disagree with me that this isn't a 'professional' performance.

I'm not saying she is an incredible player, but she's damn solid. Easily better than half of the men playing shows at your local club. Why shouldn't she be thought of as a competent player?

And besides what she looks like, I quite like this tune more than what I hear most women playing on guitar and if she had a jazz fusion type album I would probably purchase it.

That performance is fine. Yes, she is competent. The song was pitifully boring though.

But you have be honest here too. There is no way a dude playing like that would be a NAMM featured artist. She is probably better than half of the men playing shows at your local club (I'm not so sure about easily though). But that's a really low bar. Seriously. There are plenty of local guys here that could smoke her. She's at NAMM because she's a beautiful girl that can play guitar competently.

I was a judge at the Guitar Center "King of the Blues" competition for the Raleigh store a week or so ago and the kid (yes kid - he was 16) that won kicks her ass in terms of tone, phrasing, and technique.

[toejam]

Okay, here's where you're trying to apply male testosterone and ego to a girl... perhaps too many 'guitar gods' tried too hard to look like women when you were young and has led you onto the path of gender confusion. Trying to apply this logic to the female mindset is just wrong... on many levels.

:ROTF: I think I peed... just a little.