The DOUBLE STANDARD

[Evol]

"I know I sure as hell don't make sweeping all encompassing judgements on someones ability by one performance."

... or none, which says alot about attitude(s)

Whoops,I screwed up there,it should read "I know I sure as hell don't make sweeping all encompassing judgements on someones ability by one BAD performance."


Not sure what you mean about none?

[charvelguy]

Its a personal thing.. had it happen to myself here a couple times, which is why it would be bullshit any way its sliced.

Just for the record.. I don't feel that Mustaine is a great soloist..he plays things that are 'ok'..it fills the slot. He writes some killer stuff but I always found myself fast forwarding to Marty solos on Rust In Peace.
This very same argument could be applied to a Ratt, Crosby-DeMartini combo.

In the grand scheme of things.. they're signed, I'm not, end of opinion value.

[jgcable]

I based my direct comment on Mustaine's lead playing abilities on the clip that was posted.
You guys can defend him all you want. Thats cool. To me.. he is a rhythm guitar player and always will be.
I will agree that he is a great writer, performer and rhythm guitar player.

Regarding Crosby/Demartini.... Warren is the better soloist. No question.
With that said.. Robbin was a great writer, performer and also a good soloist. Not a great soloist.. but he made up for it in style and writing ability (assuming that he wrote the parts he actually played).
RIP Robbin. There is no way I am going to bash him here so don't even try to drag me into it. I have always been a big fan of his and Warren's.

How about this one... Tipton.. Downing.

My take (after being a Priest fan since Rocka-Rolla), and seeing them live at least 20 times... Tipton is the far superior soloist and Downing is the better rhythm player. Live proves it because Glen plays 80% of the most recognizable guitar solos. KK is usually relegated to the whammy type solos.

Maybe we should start another thread regarding 2 guitar player bands and the reason one plays lead and the other plays rhythm.

[markb]

Back in my playing days I would run across this sort of sterotypical rhythm player that was a party hearty sort, just liked to make noise, drink beer and chase chicks. All respectable pursuits. They had really no desire to play lead, though, and wouldn't be willing to put 1 hour of time or effort towards it. They often had a bemused attitude towards lead playing and music in general even. I'm sure others have run into this character before as well.

[jgcable]

Back in my playing days I would run across this sort of sterotypical rhythm player that was a party hearty sort, just liked to make noise, drink beer and chase chicks. All respectable pursuits. They had really no desire to play lead, though, and wouldn't be willing to put 1 hour of time or effort towards it. They often had a bemused attitude towards lead playing and music in general even. I'm sure others have run into this character before as well.

Exactly. I know the type very well. They started out wanting to learn lead guitar but realized that they can get just as many chicks and not have to practice that much + they could get hammered at a gig because they didn't have the pressure of playing guitar solos.

[lerxstcat]

Amen to that.. how many guitar players does it take to screw in a light bulb?..500.
One to get a ladder to climb and change the bulb out while the other 499 sit around and watch saying to one another "I could do that better"

That joke started out as 10, with 1 changing the bulb and 9 saying they could do better. I suppose the fact you've upped it to 500 is appropriate somehow... you had to try and do better! :ROTF:

[charvelguy]

Rather.. 'I' didn't bump it up at all. I actually heard it from a chick singer I was shagging for a short time, and thats how she told it to me. I thought the 500 was kinda off from that line of joke, but its rather appropriate.. kinda fits into how a small forum like the JCF used to be. That and the "whats a musician w/o a girlfriend".. "homeless"

"whats a guitar player w/o a guitar?"....insert your flavor of the week..

happier,
tormented
gigless
broke?
etc..

[Newc]

John, your "arguments" are all still boiling down to the technical ability of a guitarist - theory, scales, arpeggios, all that good shred stuff.

You've responded to almost every valid point throughout this thread EXCEPT the ones that state "what fits the song". Instead, you're constantly trying to shift the focus to technical ability - shredding.

Why is whatserface on stage with Santana? Maybe because she's not trying to shred in an environment where shredding would maker her look like a frikkin spaz? Maybe because she's great at playing what fits the song rather than what inflates her own ego?

Maybe that's why they get more praise - they're not buying into the idiotic idea of competition with other guitarists, but rather focusing on being tasteful in their playing.

[VitaminG]

I'm a bit late to the party, but anyhoo....

I've met Marty and stood three feet from the guy while he was playing through a $99 Dean practice amp.

I've seen them play 11 times,3 from the front row,in front of Marty once and Dave twice.Although I'm fairly sure he was using a bit of a higher quality,more expensive amp at the time.

Pete is referring to an instance a few years ago that he shared with us where you met Marty at a clinic. IIRC, Pete said at the time that he'd always been unimpressed by the Crate Blue Voodoo, but Marty made that thing sound damn good. And playing through cheap gear off the shop floor still sounded like Marty.

Hope I'm not speaking out of turn here, Pete.

[jgcable]

John, your "arguments" are all still boiling down to the technical ability of a guitarist - theory, scales, arpeggios, all that good shred stuff.

You've responded to almost every valid point throughout this thread EXCEPT the ones that state "what fits the song". Instead, you're constantly trying to shift the focus to technical ability - shredding.

Why is whatserface on stage with Santana? Maybe because she's not trying to shred in an environment where shredding would maker her look like a frikkin spaz? Maybe because she's great at playing what fits the song rather than what inflates her own ego?

Maybe that's why they get more praise - they're not buying into the idiotic idea of competition with other guitarists, but rather focusing on being tasteful in their playing.

Thats where your wrong. She isn't trying to play what fits the song. Rather.. she is playing watered down rehashed Santana licks. Because she is a hot chick... she can get away with it. Insert a dude on the stage and we would be all calling him out saying that he is totally ripping off Carlos.

[sully]

Wow.. was I wrong about Dave. He is a friggin great lead guitar player. :ROTF:
Its a good thing I didn't hear that abortion of a guitar solo when I was deciding to take up guitar.. because I wouldn't have.
That is a classic example of a rhythm guitar player trying to play lead.
There is no way in hell that anybody here could defend that horrible solo playing.
THE DEFENSE RESTS.

i have two statements:

1. this thread is nothing but prick waving.

2. yeah, daves solo was rough in that cemetery gates cover, but jesus, that was the whitest, most nutless, grooveless, lamest cover i've heard in a while. my god man, abba could cover this song with more balls. i understand that dream theatre is held on a pedestal, but jesus christ on toast, it's just boring as hell. i have three words: the sex pistols. give me steve jones' pissed off never mind the bollocks playing anyday compared to these math-loving wankers. my god. i'd rather listen to four fucking hours of supertramp than hear these guys ever again.

oh. and yeah, what dm said!

sully

[charvelguy]

ooohh..ouch, 4 hours of supertramp.. you must've really hated it.

[jgcable]

i have two statements:

1. this thread is nothing but prick waving.

2. yeah, daves solo was rough in that cemetery gates cover, but jesus, that was the whitest, most nutless, grooveless, lamest cover i've heard in a while. my god man, abba could cover this song with more balls. i understand that dream theatre is held on a pedestal, but jesus christ on toast, it's just boring as hell. i have three words: the sex pistols. give me steve jones' pissed off never mind the bollocks playing anyday compared to these math-loving wankers. my god. i'd rather listen to four fucking hours of supertramp than hear these guys ever again.

oh. and yeah, what dm said!

sully

Sully, I agree, the cover was lame. Dream Theatre is held on a pedestal because of overall band musicianship IMHO. I am a big fan because of the chops. Their music doesn't "move" me though.

Back to Dave's solo. C'mon Sully, that wasn't just rough.... it was brutally aweful. I love a good guitar solo, even if there are a few notes off here or there or maybe a different take on a classic solo. The solo to Cemetary Gates is a classic hall of metal fame guitar solo. Dave just showed us how the rhythm guitar players do it. Thanks Dave.

[Twisteramps]

I'm a bit late to the party, but anyhoo....






Pete is referring to an instance a few years ago that he shared with us where you met Marty at a clinic. IIRC, Pete said at the time that he'd always been unimpressed by the Crate Blue Voodoo, but Marty made that thing sound damn good. And playing through cheap gear off the shop floor still sounded like Marty.

Hope I'm not speaking out of turn here, Pete.

Nope, you're 100% correct. Marty played a clinic here in Tulsa and Lloyd arranged for many of us to meet/greet him for an hour or so before the clinic. He was playing through some gawdawful Dean $99 practice amp before the clinic, and it sounded great. He warmed up with some blues and some steely dan licks, believe it or not. He didn't play the blues licks 'prissily' either, he dug in.

At the clinic, I was front row, and he played a Blue Voodoo head and cab that people who attended the clinic brought! Sounded just like him.

I can understand playing for the song, but I also like having technique in reserve so I can play what I hear in my head. Having limitations sucks, unless you want to be in a Ramones cover band.

BTW, I play the music that I want to at gigs. Right now, the music that seems to go over the best around here is disco... fuck that. If I wanted to, I could probably make more money playing disco than at my 'real' job. No thanks, I play what I want. See this as an insult to the audience or whatever, but I could care less.

Oh, and those who decry any who have decent technique as soulless and wanking and horrible likely were demoted to bass years ago in a teenage garage band-meeting and only recently crawled their way up to power chords.

Pete

[Twisteramps]

i have two statements:

1. this thread is nothing but prick waving.

2. yeah, daves solo was rough in that cemetery gates cover, but jesus, that was the whitest, most nutless, grooveless, lamest cover i've heard in a while. my god man, abba could cover this song with more balls. i understand that dream theatre is held on a pedestal, but jesus christ on toast, it's just boring as hell. i have three words: the sex pistols. give me steve jones' pissed off never mind the bollocks playing anyday compared to these math-loving wankers. my god. i'd rather listen to four fucking hours of supertramp than hear these guys ever again.

oh. and yeah, what dm said!

sully

*uses both hands to wave my prick*

I think it all has a place... but personally speaking, I'd rather have 100 colors to paint with than 3, which is what having bad or no technique does to you. Just my opinion though.

And what's wrong with supertramp? Dave Gilmour played on some of those songs!

Pete