The DOUBLE STANDARD

[VoiceX3]

I don't know how this turned into a bash Dave Mustaine thread, and I have only a little thing to say to all that. Dave's rhythms are not simple. In fact they are very intricate.....you play them and try to sing them at the same time. Plus, although he is not the best lead player....he is a good one. Listen to his work over the years....if you can't hear that then maybe you should invest in a good stereo or hearing aids.

As for no women shredders.....I beg to disagree. Even on this board they are represented. Anyone here that can say Annah isn't great??? Plus she has a Jackson Endorsement, that didn't happen because she's a girl...it happenned because she kicks ass.

If you haven't heard her I suggest you check her out.

http://www.rightsideout.net/music/my_music.htm

[lerxstcat]

I didn't bash Dave at all, I( said he was a decent lead player, but that he couldn't "keep up" with Friedman or Poland, which is a fair assessment. Friedman in particular is better at velocity, complexity AND note choice. That's not a slam of Dave because you could say the same comparing Marty to a LOT of excellent players.

Annah as an example of a female player is a bit disingenuous though... I dig her stuff but she was born a male and learned to play guitar as a man. So is her experience that of a typical female player? I don't know, I guess she felt female way back when, but she fathered a child and had a marriage as a male too, so....

She might have unique insights to offer on both sides of the aisle!

[VoiceX3]

I didn't bash Dave at all, I( said he was a decent lead player, but that he couldn't "keep up" with Friedman or Poland, which is a fair assessment. Friedman in particular is better at velocity, complexity AND note choice. That's not a slam of Dave because you could say the same comparing Marty to a LOT of excellent players.

Annah as an example of a female player is a bit disingenuous though... I dig her stuff but she was born a male and learned to play guitar as a man. So is her experience that of a typical female player? I don't know, I guess she felt female way back when, but she fathered a child and had a marriage as a male too, so....

She might have unique insights to offer on both sides of the aisle!

I wasn't pinpointing you for bashing Dave, so please don't take that as me targetting you personally. Dave really can't be compared to Marty, Chris or Glen Drover or even Jeff Young.....completely different style. (he does smoke Kirk)

I don't see Annah as anything but a girl as she doesn't either, but since if we're gonna look at it that way why don't we look at girls like Britt Lightning of Jaded. http://www.jadedrockers.com
She's also a Jackson endorsed artist and is as good as almost any dude here.....better than most. There are plenty more too. Remember Jan Kuehnemund of Vixen? Look around and you'll find more.

[slash-ed]

Lori Linstruth?

[jgcable]

I don't know how this turned into a bash Dave Mustaine thread, and I have only a little thing to say to all that. Dave's rhythms are not simple. In fact they are very intricate.....you play them and try to sing them at the same time. Plus, although he is not the best lead player....he is a good one. Listen to his work over the years....if you can't hear that then maybe you should invest in a good stereo or hearing aids.

As for no women shredders.....I beg to disagree. Even on this board they are represented. Anyone here that can say Annah isn't great??? Plus she has a Jackson Endorsement, that didn't happen because she's a girl...it happenned because she kicks ass.

If you haven't heard her I suggest you check her out.
http://www.rightsideout.net/music/my_music.htm

I don't agree and I will say that she is a perfect example of the double standard I talk about.
BTW.. she isn't a shredder. Lots of basic pentatonics going on there.
Actually.. she reminds me alot of Ace Frehely.

Her endorsement deal has nothing to do with her guitar chops. It has to do with other things.... musical and non musical.

My DOUBLE STANDARD thread has to do with guitar chops and how women don't need to be nearly as good as men to get the same respect and props from other guitar players. Especially males.
I just don't get it. Still... after all these pages of responses... maybe there is no easy answer or better yet.. maybe nobody here will man up and start coming clean on this topic.

Back in the day... I would hear many guy guitar players state that the chick who played guitar for the GoGo's was a good soloist.. or that Nancy Wilson was a great soloist. Then... on another occasion when we were having our basic "who's better.... Ace Frehely or Jimmy Page" arguement these same guy guitar players would have the friggin nerve to say that Ace was too basic or that Jimmy was sloppy or that Angus played the same riffs over and over again or that Ted Nugent was a good performer but only an average guitar player.
Are you kidding me or what!!!
This is another example of the DOUBLE STANDARD.

Even in this thread... some really excellent male JCF players have stated that John Petrucci is a boring wanker. Hey.. you may not like his songs or his band but you can't deny that he isn't a great technical guitar wizard.
I don't really dig Vai or Satch but I would never say they weren't great guitar players.
I think that there is a benchmark player
when you rate certain genre's of soloists.
For instance...
Neo Classical....Roth, Blackmore and Malmsteen
Blues.... SRV
Fusion... Gambale
Rock.... Page, Perry, Frehely etc....
Jazz.... Dimeola
Metal.... Lynch

There are many more players that you would consider benchmarks. These are just a few examples that came to mind.

For rhythm guitar players... guys like Mustaine, Hetfield, Paul Stanley, Billy Joe (from Greenday), are all great.

[Vlover]

I love it when we argue art!

[jgcable]

I love it when we argue art!

Again.. thats where I disagree.

I am talking about a SPECIFIC artform. Soloing. I am also breaking it down into different types of soloing.

If wer were arguing art then we would be talking about overall guitar playing. That... would be VERY subjective.

[Vlover]

Again.. thats where I disagree.

I am talking about a SPECIFIC artform. Soloing. I am also breaking it down into different types of soloing.

If wer were arguing art then we would be talking about overall guitar playing. That... would be VERY subjective.

This is like arguing pencil shading vs water colors! Its all completely subjective

[lerxstcat]

I wasn't pinpointing you for bashing Dave, so please don't take that as me targetting you personally. Dave really can't be compared to Marty, Chris or Glen Drover or even Jeff Young.....completely different style. (he does smoke Kirk)

I don't see Annah as anything but a girl as she doesn't either, but since if we're gonna look at it that way why don't we look at girls like Britt Lightning of Jaded. http://www.jadedrockers.com
She's also a Jackson endorsed artist and is as good as almost any dude here.....better than most. There are plenty more too. Remember Jan Kuehnemund of Vixen? Look around and you'll find more.

Yeah, Britt's good. You'll also see where I posted Chelsea Constable earlier on this thread. Go to he Myspace and listen to her version of Scarified by Racer X. She is 16 years old!

So I'm not debating your premise, I backed it up pages before you got here! I AM saying that using Annah as an example clouds the water because of her personal history. If you took it as an insult I certainly didn't mean it that way.

But Annah lived and acted as a male in terms of playing guitar and in having a child with a woman, for most of her life. She may have felt like a girl inside the whole time, but she played the male role outside. That's my main point.

[Evol]

Y I AM saying that using Annah as an example clouds the water because of her personal history. If you took it as an insult I certainly didn't mean it that way.

But Annah lived and acted as a male in terms of playing guitar and in having a child with a woman, for most of her life. She may have felt like a girl inside the whole time, but she played the male role outside. That's my main point.

Not sure what her past life has to do with the topic at hand,is there a double standard for women from male guitar players I think is the OP's question/point/whatever.

Since she's a woman now,that should apply just fine to that double standard,so long as you didn't know her past,which I assume most would not.

So would guys now seeing her play mis-judge her ablilities because she's a woman? Do male guitar players lower the bar when it's a woman playing guitar? Certainly.

Is it fair? Of course not.

Why is this? bewbz > all

But who gives a shit what musicians think? Playing to impress other guitar players is silly anyhow,play to please the crowd,they'll love you for it.

[VoiceX3]

Yeah, Britt's good. You'll also see where I posted Chelsea Constable earlier on this thread. Go to he Myspace and listen to her version of Scarified by Racer X. She is 16 years old!

So I'm not debating your premise, I backed it up pages before you got here! I AM saying that using Annah as an example clouds the water because of her personal history. If you took it as an insult I certainly didn't mean it that way.

No, definately not. We've both been here a long time, so I kinda knew you weren't trying to insult anyone. And hell yes Chelsea is a smokin player.

Not sure what her past life has to do with the topic at hand,is there a double standard for women from male guitar players I think is the OP's question/point/whatever.

Since she's a woman now,that should apply just fine to that double standard,so long as you didn't know her past,which I assume most would not.

So would guys now seeing her play mis-judge her ablilities because she's a woman? Do male guitar players lower the bar when it's a woman playing guitar? Certainly.

Is it fair? Of course not.

Why is this? bewbz > all

But who gives a shit what musicians think? Playing to impress other guitar players is silly anyhow,play to please the crowd,they'll love you for it.

The circuit I've played on for the last 20 years, there have been no leniancies toward any female players I've seen.....actually I remember the EC Rocker and Aquarian both praising AND ripping several female players. Where I think the double standard comes in is this.......A male singer does not have to be as good as a female to get serious props, and if a female is just short of amazing, she usually gets ripped. That's where the real double standard lies.

[Dreamland_Rebel]

why don't women wear a watch... there's a clock on the stove!

what do you say to a woman with 2 black eyes... nothing, she's already been told twice!

ok in all seriousness. i don't really see the double standard. us musicians can tell when a band is sucking or a player is sucking period. but at the same time we still find it nice to see a woman up there doing it. even if she's struggling. it's a refeshing sight in this male dominated industy. so it might seem like we're praising them but really we're just excited by vag.

[lerxstcat]

Not sure what her past life has to do with the topic at hand,is there a double standard for women from male guitar players I think is the OP's question/point/whatever.

Since she's a woman now,that should apply just fine to that double standard,so long as you didn't know her past,which I assume most would not.

So would guys now seeing her play mis-judge her ablilities because she's a woman? Do male guitar players lower the bar when it's a woman playing guitar? Certainly.

Is it fair? Of course not.

Why is this? bewbz > all

But who gives a shit what musicians think? Playing to impress other guitar players is silly anyhow,play to please the crowd,they'll love you for it.

Well other posters have pointed out that men are competitive and that leads to the shred mentality, wheras women are not about one-upmanship. I'm not sure if that's really true, because I believe women try to look hot to outdo the other chicks; they know we'll jump their bones regardless, they don't need to do it for us!

The other factor that was posted is that many guys took up guitar in part to get laid easier, wheras a girl can get laid easily whether she p-lays guitar or not. So these factors as motivating forces are not necessarily present in women who are born and raised as women.

But for a woman who was born, raised, learned guitar, played in bands and even had a wife and son as a man, Annah has lived in both gender roles, not just the woman role. So it's not better or worse, but it IS different.

I do think a double standard exists, but then too there are plenty of women who absolutely can hang with ANY male player. That 16-year-old Chelsea can hang with Gilbert or Friedman any day. Jennifer Batten is a top player too.

And to be fair, I compliment some of my guy friends who are mediocre too. If you like the person and they don't suck you're disposed to like them even if they aren't reinventing the wheel.

[NEWYEARKID]

Guys not to be cruel/ an internet TROLL/or one of those dumbass..in my day guys. Lets be REAL. Forget men,women or children just ask yourself these questions:
1) Who can pick flawlessly in perfect time-NO rushing/slowing down
as well as Di Meola,Gilbert,Malmsteen,Eric Johnson.,Pettrucci..etc?
2) Who has a very wide smooth controlled vibrato that just sings like
Uli Jon Roth,Schenker,Kee Marcello,Yngwie...you know perfect
pitch,intonation and timing in a musical way..Example Kee Marcello
from Europe "Superstitious solo"
3) Who has utterly seamless legato technique where all the notes
have the exact volume and tone whether hammered or tapped
like Greg Howe,Allan Holdsworth,Satriani,Vai....you know world
class phrasing like the late Shawn Lane where it sounds like a
saxophone or violin?
4) Who plays ultra clean string skipping like Paul Gilbert,Michael
Romeo,Chris Broderick...Once again in a musical way...NOT
some three ring circus trick?
5) Who Sweep like Gambale,Yngwie,Vinnie Moore,Loomis,Macalpine
or better yet Brett Garsed or Shawn Lane?...check out youtube
showing the early Lane playing ZZ tops Sharp dressed Man
with his own solos.
6) Who has been gifted with a great sense of creativity and the
courage to not end up a clone or discouraged by other people
criticisms/lack of commercial success?
7) How many guys have signiture licks/sounds?

Sorry for the rant but most of us are NOT READY FOR PRIME TIME BY
THESE LOFT STANDARDS. Look at great players like Rusty Cooley,
Fabrizio Leo,Marshall Harrison...They deserve recognition and soldier
on.
PEACE

[VitaminG]

Guys not to be cruel/ an internet TROLL/or one of those dumbass..in my day guys. Lets be REAL. Forget men,women or children just ask yourself these questions:
1) Who can pick flawlessly in perfect time-NO rushing/slowing down
as well as Di Meola,Gilbert,Malmsteen,Eric Johnson.,Pettrucci..etc?
2) Who has a very wide smooth controlled vibrato that just sings like
Uli Jon Roth,Schenker,Kee Marcello,Yngwie...you know perfect
pitch,intonation and timing in a musical way..Example Kee Marcello
from Europe "Superstitious solo"
3) Who has utterly seamless legato technique where all the notes
have the exact volume and tone whether hammered or tapped
like Greg Howe,Allan Holdsworth,Satriani,Vai....you know world
class phrasing like the late Shawn Lane where it sounds like a
saxophone or violin?
4) Who plays ultra clean string skipping like Paul Gilbert,Michael
Romeo,Chris Broderick...Once again in a musical way...NOT
some three ring circus trick?
5) Who Sweep like Gambale,Yngwie,Vinnie Moore,Loomis,Macalpine
or better yet Brett Garsed or Shawn Lane?...check out youtube
showing the early Lane playing ZZ tops Sharp dressed Man
with his own solos.
6) Who has been gifted with a great sense of creativity and the
courage to not end up a clone or discouraged by other people
criticisms/lack of commercial success?
7) How many guys have signiture licks/sounds?

Sorry for the rant but most of us are NOT READY FOR PRIME TIME BY
THESE LOFT STANDARDS. Look at great players like Rusty Cooley,
Fabrizio Leo,Marshall Harrison...They deserve recognition and soldier
on.
PEACE

I've never heard of the "greats" Fabrizio Leo or Marshall Harrison, but if those are the criteria to be met, then you could say that most of the "greats" don't measure up. I know most of my favourite players wouldn't. Reb Beach isn't a great sweeper or string skipper. A lot of the players you've included in your list wouldn't either. Satriani & Gilbert aren't world class sweepers. Schenker isn't a flawless picker or sweeper. You might consider guys like Cooley, Leo & Harrison "ready for prime time" but who are they really? The average person on the street has never & will never hear of them. Hell, the average music fanatic probably never will either. A few thousand guitarists around the planet might find out about them, and most of them would probably rather listen to Ace or Perry or Slash, none of whom measure up to your criteria.