The DOUBLE STANDARD

[slash-ed]

Gilbert is not a world class sweeper? You've got to be kidding me.

[hippietim]

this discussion sure has jumped the shark.

[NEWYEARKID]

Wow misunderstood

Sorry guys..I'm not standing on a soapbox expecting anyone to reach those lofty heights... I just think the whole idea of double standards is a very sad indication of how far we have'nt come as a society. Once someone is at a professional level( you're getting paid for your services) no one cares if you're male or female only your performance matters. The reason we don't see more female guitar playing is the athletic mindset..bigger,faster,better. The perception is that Guitar is a Boys club and any women showing any ability at all will either be rejected or discouraged. To add insult to injury we lower the bar to the point where anything a woman plays at a basic level is great implying shes not capable of anything better. Reality check-people will either perform at a certain level or move on to something else..How many of us had friends that started learning how to play at the same time as you? How many are still playing? If there was a female equivalent to Van Halen,Rhoads,Loomis,Petrucci,Gilbert would the largely male guitar community accept her ? Nora Bucci got second in the 2006 Guitar Hero competition by picking like Al Di Meola not by looking like Jessica Biel.

[jgcable]

Sorry guys..I'm not standing on a soapbox expecting anyone to reach those lofty heights... I just think the whole idea of double standards is a very sad indication of how far we have'nt come as a society. Once someone is at a professional level( you're getting paid for your services) no one cares if you're male or female only your performance matters. The reason we don't see more female guitar playing is the athletic mindset..bigger,faster,better. The perception is that Guitar is a Boys club and any women showing any ability at all will either be rejected or discouraged. To add insult to injury we lower the bar to the point where anything a woman plays at a basic level is great implying shes not capable of anything better. Reality check-people will either perform at a certain level or move on to something else..How many of us had friends that started learning how to play at the same time as you? How many are still playing? If there was a female equivalent to Van Halen,Rhoads,Loomis,Petrucci,Gilbert would the largely male guitar community accept her ? Nora Bucci got second in the 2006 Guitar Hero competition by picking like Al Di Meola not by looking like Jessica Biel.

Your comments are exactly what I can't stand.

Lead guitar players are supposed to be GREAT. They are supposed to be the top of the friggin food chain when it comes to guitar playing. They are supposed to be the GOLD METAL winners.... the leader of the pack... the band member that almost gets as many hot chicks as the lead singer!!!!

Somehow... we lost track of what a lead guitar player is supposed to be.
Damn.. I miss the 80's.
There are too many pussy male lead guitar players who worry about feelings and emotional stuff and all that other unatural horseshit.
Back in the good old days.... lead guitar players were monsters. They were intimidating.. they were masters of their craft. If you couldn't rip a fucking wall down with your soloing abilities you wouldn't even think of playing in public. If you weren't boinking the hottest chick in every town you played in you weren't a real lead guitar player.
We called them posers. They looked good, they played bad.
Nowadays... its like guys turned into chicks with the way they approach lead playing. I never idolized famous players. I respected them and learned from them. We all did back when you REALLY had to know how to play if you wer going to be the lead guitar player. There are entirely too many light weight players currently. They have watered down the chop factor which leads to 10 page threads like this one.
I started it btw...
For me.. I don't care who the frig you are, where you came from, what gender you are or whatever. If you suck... you suck. You will get no special break from me. Thats how we should all be. This "I don't want to hurt your feelings crap" is just that... crap.
Metal lead guitar playing is not for sissy's.

[slash-ed]

I think that time is coming to an end though. Lead playing is finally making a comeback - even guys from bands like Disturbed are getting out there and playing some REAL leads. Maybe not anything ground breaking by 80s standards, but I think it's a good effort nonetheless. Not to mention guys like Jeff Loomis and Chris Broderick who have been around for some time but just being discovered by the younger generation.

[jgcable]

I think that time is coming to an end though. Lead playing is finally making a comeback - even guys from bands like Disturbed are getting out there and playing some REAL leads. Maybe not anything ground breaking by 80s standards, but I think it's a good effort nonetheless. Not to mention guys like Jeff Loomis and Chris Broderick who have been around for some time but just being discovered by the younger generation.

I sure hope so.

[hippietim]

John has a Y2K bug.

[Twisteramps]

this discussion sure has jumped the shark.

[Evol]

Your comments are exactly what I can't stand.

Lead guitar players are supposed to be GREAT. They are supposed to be the top of the friggin food chain when it comes to guitar playing. They are supposed to be the GOLD METAL winners.... the leader of the pack... the band member that almost gets as many hot chicks as the lead singer!!!!

How about a member of a band that plays great songs? It ain't a one-man show,you can be the hottest guitar player on the planet,but if your band sucks,your lucky to be banging the bus driver on the way home.

Somehow... we lost track of what a lead guitar player is supposed to be.
Damn.. I miss the 80's.

The 80's guitar player wank-fest is what killed it.
Too.much.ejaculation.
That and Guns and Roses,but then again they had a kick-ass lead guitar player,but OMG, *gasp* they had great songs.

There are too many pussy male lead guitar players who worry about feelings and emotional stuff and all that other unatural horseshit.

Yah really,god help those players that actually put those emotions and feelings into their playing.Bunch of pussies!
</SARCASM>

Back in the good old days.... lead guitar players were monsters. They were intimidating.. they were masters of their craft. If you couldn't rip a fucking wall down with your soloing abilities you wouldn't even think of playing in public.

Wow,really? I guess that's why Dave Mustaine never played leads in public? :ROTF: Or,if you want to argue that he's a "rhythm" player,let me rephrase : I guess that's why Dave Mustaine,the lead guitar player for Metallica,never played leads in public while being the lead guitar player.:ROTF:

Some lead guitar players who were/are monsters :

Leslie West (very scary looking dude)
Mick Mars (self explanatory)
Slash (kinda-monsterish with the hat and hair)
Keith Richards(think Night of the Living Dead)
The guy from Blues Traveler (Damn wait,he played harmonica didn't he? Or is that Lead Harmonica?)
Buckethead( I know there's a monster under there)
Kerry King (Spawn of Satan)

</SARCASM OFF>

If you weren't boinking the hottest chick in every town you played in you weren't a real lead guitar player.

Poor Ace Frehley He's gonna be real sad to not be considered a real guitar player,since you know Gene and Paul got all the poon.

And dammit Tommy Lee,Vince Neil and Nikki Sixx for taking all the hot girls away from Mick.Shame on you Tommy for filming it for the world to see how obvious it is that in reality Mick's not a real lead guitar player.

And what about bands with 2 lead guitar players,who got the sloppy seconds from the hottest chick in every town? "Ok,Dave Murray,you get the hot chick first on Mondays,Thursday and Saturday,Adrian gets the off-days"

We called them posers. They looked good, they played bad.

This may be one of the only things in this post that I agree with.It may also be regional but we had other definitions for poser besides the pretend players.For example,if you wore makeup,girly clothes and played the corporate rock star formula,whether you could play good or not,you were a poser.If you appeared in pictures or ads poofing your lips out with lipstick on,way too tight pants that showed your twig,and/or copying everyone else more of less,you were a poser.

Some bands that were posers by that definition :

Poison
Dokken
Cinderella
Motley Crue
Yngwie (sorry dude,but some of those outstretched leg photos were hilarious,nice kissy-faces too)
Stryper
Stryper (they deserve to be on the list twice)
Winger
etc,etc,etc

Some bands that were not posers by that definition :

S.O.D.
Anthrax
Slayer
Old Metallica
Megadeth (pre-gloves )
AC/DC (yes he wore the suit,and stripped,but he was an original and still is)

The word even morphed into a general insult for someone you just didn't like too. "The principal gave me detention,that dude is such a fucking poser"

Nowadays... its like guys turned into chicks with the way they approach lead playing.

Triple standard?

I never idolized famous players. I respected them and learned from them. We all did back when you REALLY had to know how to play if you wer going to be the lead guitar player. There are entirely too many light weight players currently. They have watered down the chop factor which leads to 10 page threads like this one.

"They" didn't water it down,the music loving public in general got sick of the jack-offery of wankfest solos,most of which never added any musical value to the SONG,only stroked the ego of the guy holding the pick.

I'll never forget the day Impeliterri came out and I heard "Somewhere over the Rainbow" the guitar player in me was amazed,but I noticed something weird,people that weren't into guitar playing,just fans of music,HATED it.Didn't take too long to understand why,even after asking. He took a beautiful song,with such a simple vocal line and EJACULATED so bad on it you can't even hear some of the notes....very impressive from a technical standpoint,but to listen to ,just painful.

It was a natural progression,it was bound to happen. The general music listening/buying public at large got sick of the dick-fest shred contest.I don't blame them one bit.

I started it btw...
For me.. I don't care who the frig you are, where you came from, what gender you are or whatever. If you suck... you suck. You will get no special break from me. Thats how we should all be. This "I don't want to hurt your feelings crap" is just that... crap.
Metal lead guitar playing is not for sissy's.

One last quote,this one is from Satch,now if anyone says he's not a "real" guitar player,you can suck it (right now) :


Guitar heroes are famous for their big egos. Is that why your guitar looks like a mirror?
-Anonymous

Actually, the guitar reflects the audience, not the player.

[markb]

By the criteria established in this thread, I would say the tiny bits of praise thrown at the miniscule amount of female guitarists on this planet is too small an issue to even bother with.

The real problem is all the praise, money etc thrown at unworthy male players. All these dudes like Clapton, Gilmour, Thorogood, Gibbons, Guy, Knopfler, Beck, Dharma etc. If they would just learn to play their instrumnets. Just imagine all the early ZZ Top albums or maybe Dark Side of the Moon or Animals. If they were chock full of sweeping and tapping, they would have been so much better. It should have been Rusty Cooley in Pink Floyd.

[petedz]

The general music listening/buying public at large got sick of the dick-fest shred contest.I don't blame them one bit.

I don't think that's what happened. I mean if the next listening trend after the "dick-fest" was music with great melodies and solid, tasteful songwriting, I missed it.

[Endrik]

the more you masturbate the less you need to bang the hottest chicks

[Endrik]

the players durning the first half of the 80's were great, they had style, attitude and songwriting skills, they were like the dudes from 60's and 70's but with more chops.

durning the late 80's buncha sharpnel yngwie rip-offs came out, the things started going downhill from there.

durning the 90's when solos weren't cool, the underground-internet-shred-scene had started. Every fag made a website, they weren't even in a band but allready made their own websites with such bitchin titles like "name" a 7-string progressive shredder.... or .... "name" a neo-classical instrumental guitarist...etc. now how cool is that??? and most of them claimed that they are breaking the guitar playing boundaries.... and it was pretty much how much you can stretch your fingers and play the widest patterns at insane amount of speed.... it looked somewhat interesting on the video but if you started listen to it.... it sounded like shit... a ridiculous beat with cheesy drum machine sound, lame chord progressions and on top of it a lot of notes played really really fast.... it didn't sounded anything new whatsoever, just some licks played so that one pattern would be on one string instead of 3 wich a normal player would do, but goosh, it's fucking important to show bunch a nerdy dudes how well I can stretch my fingers - fuck maybe I should join a ballet or aerobics class - instead of doing a great show and impressing the girls.

And now when people claim that solos are back.... guitar playing has reached to the ultimate low.... now we have youtube fags.... no need for own websites anymore.... buncha talentless kids who haven't jammed even with one person are showing off how cool they are....NOT
And when I listen to those so called modern day guitar heroes it feels like when I was 13 and fucked some ugly-fat bitch.... yeah something is going on but it fucking stinks.
In my opinion those players don't have the fire, passion and kickass rock'n'roll attitude. Most of them don't even know the roots. They have learned from the generation before them but are unaware where the real music came from... all the real great musicans listened to old school stuff... delta blues... big band jazz and stuff like that.... that's where you get your attitude... new players don't have any of those roots, they sound plain and sterile without any unique characteristics. And they are fucking booring as people too. I want bunch a crazy ass motherfuckers who trash hotel rooms and fuck thousands of groupies. I don't care about bazillion Dream Theater clones, I want more bands like Motley Crue.... I don't care how fast you are.... I want some badass attitude and great tunes.

[Vlover]

the more you masturbate the less you need to bang the hottest chicks

this goes into my signature

[jgcable]

How about a member of a band that plays great songs? It ain't a one-man show,you can be the hottest guitar player on the planet,but if your band sucks,your lucky to be banging the bus driver on the way home.



The 80's guitar player wank-fest is what killed it.
Too.much.ejaculation.
That and Guns and Roses,but then again they had a kick-ass lead guitar player,but OMG, *gasp* they had great songs.



Yah really,god help those players that actually put those emotions and feelings into their playing.Bunch of pussies!
</SARCASM>



Wow,really? I guess that's why Dave Mustaine never played leads in public? :ROTF: Or,if you want to argue that he's a "rhythm" player,let me rephrase : I guess that's why Dave Mustaine,the lead guitar player for Metallica,never played leads in public while being the lead guitar player.:ROTF:

Some lead guitar players who were/are monsters :

Leslie West (very scary looking dude)
Mick Mars (self explanatory)
Slash (kinda-monsterish with the hat and hair)
Keith Richards(think Night of the Living Dead)
The guy from Blues Traveler (Damn wait,he played harmonica didn't he? Or is that Lead Harmonica?)
Buckethead( I know there's a monster under there)
Kerry King (Spawn of Satan)

</SARCASM OFF>



Poor Ace Frehley He's gonna be real sad to not be considered a real guitar player,since you know Gene and Paul got all the poon.

And dammit Tommy Lee,Vince Neil and Nikki Sixx for taking all the hot girls away from Mick.Shame on you Tommy for filming it for the world to see how obvious it is that in reality Mick's not a real lead guitar player.

And what about bands with 2 lead guitar players,who got the sloppy seconds from the hottest chick in every town? "Ok,Dave Murray,you get the hot chick first on Mondays,Thursday and Saturday,Adrian gets the off-days"



This may be one of the only things in this post that I agree with.It may also be regional but we had other definitions for poser besides the pretend players.For example,if you wore makeup,girly clothes and played the corporate rock star formula,whether you could play good or not,you were a poser.If you appeared in pictures or ads poofing your lips out with lipstick on,way too tight pants that showed your twig,and/or copying everyone else more of less,you were a poser.

Some bands that were posers by that definition :

Poison
Dokken
Cinderella
Motley Crue
Yngwie (sorry dude,but some of those outstretched leg photos were hilarious,nice kissy-faces too)
Stryper
Stryper (they deserve to be on the list twice)
Winger
etc,etc,etc

Some bands that were not posers by that definition :

S.O.D.
Anthrax
Slayer
Old Metallica
Megadeth (pre-gloves )
AC/DC (yes he wore the suit,and stripped,but he was an original and still is)

The word even morphed into a general insult for someone you just didn't like too. "The principal gave me detention,that dude is such a fucking poser"



Triple standard?



"They" didn't water it down,the music loving public in general got sick of the jack-offery of wankfest solos,most of which never added any musical value to the SONG,only stroked the ego of the guy holding the pick.

I'll never forget the day Impeliterri came out and I heard "Somewhere over the Rainbow" the guitar player in me was amazed,but I noticed something weird,people that weren't into guitar playing,just fans of music,HATED it.Didn't take too long to understand why,even after asking. He took a beautiful song,with such a simple vocal line and EJACULATED so bad on it you can't even hear some of the notes....very impressive from a technical standpoint,but to listen to ,just painful.

It was a natural progression,it was bound to happen. The general music listening/buying public at large got sick of the dick-fest shred contest.I don't blame them one bit.



One last quote,this one is from Satch,now if anyone says he's not a "real" guitar player,you can suck it (right now) :


Guitar heroes are famous for their big egos. Is that why your guitar looks like a mirror?
-Anonymous

Actually, the guitar reflects the audience, not the player.

All the players you mentioned above are great to me. Keith Richards, Clapton, Beck etc... not just the wankers. My point is that in order to play lead guitar you should be great. Great like all the players you mentioned.

So.. I guess.. I agree with you on almost everything you just mentioned.