The DOUBLE STANDARD

[Evol]

I don't think that's what happened. I mean if the next listening trend after the "dick-fest" was music with great melodies and solid, tasteful songwriting, I missed it.

It's exactly what happened,even the singers were getting into the wanking too with who can sing the highest bullshit,it all backfired,people got sick of it and it changed really quick once people stopped buying it. The next listening trend as you say imo was this detuned,low vocal stuff that seemed to appeal to more people.Even lyrically mainstream hard rock/metal/whatever changed.

The 80's and early 90's metal songs,lyric wise were just getting down right silly,maybe that had always been,but geez some of it was so damn cheesy.Even the image was out of control,it got to be who could outdress,wear the most makeup,and who could tease their hair the highest.

What came right after that,was the COMPLETE opposite of all of that.Whether you think the songwriting and melodies sucked or whatever,it happened,it blew up in their faces,and I'm glad.

The 80's were fun and all,I know I had a blast,but music got so stupid,that it wasn't about music anymore.Those guys forgot about that,they needed to be humbled.


I don't think the guitar solo really died so much as the "rock star guitar hero super shredder on crack" crap did. I mean we still had bands like :

Pantera
Metallica
Megadeth
Ozzy,etc

Some of who had their biggest successes up to that point during that time.

And even bands like Nirvana (ugh,I know I know) did play solos,although his were more of following his vocal lines,which is kinda neat I guess,the guitar is a vocal instrument after all,I think more non-musician people could relate to hearing that at the time then meedlee wanking.I mean you can hum it,you can sing it,and you remember it.Try doing that with say Impeliterri,I guarantee you will break your hummer . And bands like Pearl Jam played solos,...so it never really dipped totally out of mainstream music,but the style certainly changed.Nu-Metal is another animal though.

Guitar players had it coming,they got too far away from what they are,part of a BAND. Nothing will humble you quicker I would imagine that going from playing stadiums to little clubs and wondering why....why since you can play so amazingly fast,and know so much theory,and could play every scale in any key with your little toe...why would you be playing for such small crowds while players like Zakk,who plays SO many pentatonic licks and looks like a homeless lumberjack still plays stadiums?

Because people (normal,non-musicians,or 90% of the crowd)don't give a shit about your wanker abilities.

[Endrik]

I don't agree, I think the lyrics kicked ass in the 80's. They were about having fun. When Grunge went mainstream the lyrics were just plain awfull. Talk about ego. I don't care when some dipshit sings how shitty life he has or how fucked up the world is...boo hoo... everyone has bad times and I hear too much shit about politics, society, world etc. from radio and TV anyway.
I liked that the 80's bands and many bands in the 70's offered the people something else so they could escape from the real world for a while and forget their problems.... much needed thing for the kids who have a hard time or folks who work 24/7.
I really hate most of the lyrics in metal, totally anti-rock'n'roll and anti-fun.

[hippietim]

Endrik, rock/country/pop lyrics usually suck. The 80's lyrics were no exception.

FYI, Kiss lyrics were the best. For example:
"Plaster, caster, grab a hold of me faster"
"You pull the trigger of my Love Gun"

:ROTF:

[Endrik]

I like KISS lyrics, cheesy but funny

[Evol]

I don't agree, I think the lyrics kicked ass in the 80's. They were about having fun. When Grunge went mainstream the lyrics were just plain awfull. Talk about ego. I don't care when some dipshit sings how shitty life he has or how fucked up the world is...boo hoo... everyone has bad times and I hear too much shit about politics, society, world etc. from radio and TV anyway.
I liked that the 80's bands and many bands in the 70's offered the people something else so they could escape from the real world for a while and forget their problems.... much needed thing for the kids who have a hard time or folks who work 24/7.
I really hate most of the lyrics in metal, totally anti-rock'n'roll and anti-fun.

You don't have to agree,but it happened. I don't hear any more "She's my cherry pie" songs in mainstream rock/metal anymore,so uhm yeah.

It was pure candy coated crap,and people got sick of it,imo.If someone has an actual explanation of it that differs,and not an opinion about why the lyrics and or music was so great,or saying how much you miss it,I'm all ears.

Fact: There are no more candy ass lyrics(whatever that defines,partying,banging muff,partying,pouring sugar on me,banging muff,etc...rinse repeat),at least not many in the mainstream modern rock world since those days.

My question: Why do you think that is? Whether you like the old or the new,or neither,it doesn't matter,it DID change,and very rapidly. Why?

I contend that it all got excessive and the focus on the actual music got lost. Too much hairspray,cocaine,booze,chicks,too much competetion,from singers,guitar players,clothes,makeup,etc etc etc...

It got completely and totally reversed very soon after G&R came about.The rock star formula that record companies and MTV used for those years got broken the hell up.No more shiny neon colored trenchcoats,the makeup came off,hairspray stock plummeted,musical gear went retro,people stopped smiling while playing their instruments,everyone (yes even some of those 80's bands that tried to jump on the "bandwagon") tuned down until their strings flapped off the fretboard,no more 8 million miles an hour guitar solo's,and no more Cherry fucking Pie.

But why else would that be? Political upheaval? Sudden generation gap? LSD in the drinking water? Global warming? Global cooling? Massive simultaneous taste change? All I know is me personally,and mind you I lived and played in the 80's,and had a blast too,but I got so damn sick of it all....it all became a whack-off contest and image fest....it was a fucking circus,like some silly transvestite parade,you didn't know who was a girl or a guy anymore,the focus on the MUSIC was gone. Take away the makeup,8 foot hair,high heel boots,slap on an instument and some jeans...now play me a fucking song cowboy! Hard to play Cherry Pie when you're not dolled up like a queen walking down the runway ,ain't it?


Oh,btw in case you think the 80's bands didn't have songs and lyrics whining about life and how shitty it is,having bad times,etc....feel free to check these out :

Faster Pussycat - "House of Pain"
Dokken - "Alone Again"
Bon Jovi - "Come Back"
Poison - "Every Rose ..."
Cinderella - "Somebody Save Me"
Def Leppard - "Love Bites"
Motley Crue - "Without You"
White Lion - "It's Over"
Warrant - "I Saw Red"

Why in the hell do all these big tough rock star types,who could bang all the hot girls in any town,always seem to get broken hearts and cry about it?

Thank God for bands like Slayer

[Evol]

Endrik, rock/country/pop lyrics usually suck. The 80's lyrics were no exception.

FYI, Kiss lyrics were the best. For example:
"Plaster, caster, grab a hold of me faster"
"You pull the trigger of my Love Gun"

:ROTF:

"Put your hand in my pocket,grab on to my rocket"

[Endrik]

sorry evol, but I think bands like Slayer lick eggs.

Rock'n'roll has ALLWAYS been about image and partying...ALLWAYS. Starting from The Comets, Elvis, Beatles, The Stones etc. they all did it. This is fucking rock'n'roll.... and if people got tired of it... to bad.... but I don't care what the others like or dislike... I'm all about the good ol' rock'n'roll. That music is timeless, the songs are still played on the radio but all those whiney one hit wonders or underground thugs are forgotten.
Fuck even Lemmy said that the dudes in Motley Crue were way more badass and had more attitude than all the extreme metal guys. Hey, they are still selling out the biggest arenas.... people still like rock.

[VitaminG]

That Eleanor Rigby sure knew how to party. Love Me Tender! Now there's a party song! I see a red door and I want to paint it black - party, party, party!

[sully]

"Put your hand in my pocket,grab on to my rocket"

you guys are leaving out the best four lines ever written:

"she's a dancer,
a romancer,
i'm a capricorn,
and she's a cancer"

although paul may have meant that while her astrological sign may be a cancer, her attitude and outlook on life is also cancerous. hm. oh. wait. no.

evol and gary are the heroes of this thread.

[Endrik]

there's something missing... the lyrics alone don't have enough spice.... how about the hyper ridiculous Phantom Of The Park movie

[Endrik]

I never dug Paint It Black... Let's Spend The Night Together sounded cooler

[NEWYEARKID]

Wow this is hands down the funniest thread I've ever read in a guitar forum.The whole Beavis & Butthead vibe of taking all this seriously kills me. Theres all ways been great playing in shitty music and great songs with weak or no solos at all.I love how people tend to forget how cheesey the TIME OF THEIR YOUTH was..you're not really remembering how great it was back in the day; you're remembering what it was like to have less responsibilities and party all the time. In Physcology; this is called selective memory-your mind remembers only the good things about a particular time or event. Not to sidetrack this but this is the musical equivalent of the old guy at the Sports Bar always talking about his high school football day..implying that he never moved on or ever had anything else going on in his life. Lets see Steve Stevens,Eddie Van Halen and Slash all played on horrible songs with Michael Jackson..bottom line even they could'nt save a shitty song with unlimited production budgets/studio time/marketing hype. Great playing with no songs is like having a vette or ferrari with no steering wheel or tires..you're never going to get off the starting block. What has Slash done since leaving Guns and Roses..Velvet Revolver? Weak...Who Replaced him? Buckethead and Bumblefoot...real names- Brian Caroll and Ron Thall-Two Chopmonsters who knew way more about music and playing than Slash ever will.
Bottom line they don't have the vibe or attitude for a band like Guns. Rock and Roll was never about chops or else all the bands would sound like Yes/Dream Theater/ Rush. I loved Michael Schenkers playing along with Gary Moore,Uli Jon Roth,Yngwie,Vandenberg......sadly they had no material. Compare them to the guys that were good players that had airplay Neal Schon(Journey) ,Brad Gillis-Jeff Watson(Nightranger),Paul Gilbert(mr Big),Nuno(Extreme),Van Halen,John Sykes(Whitesnake),Steve Lukather(Toto),John Norum(Europe),Phil Collens-Vivian Campbell(Def Leppard). Sometimes the Things we really like as guitar players just are'nt commercial..I love the early Yngwie(Alcatrazz period-worst singing ever),Paul Gilbert(Racer X ruled) but you need songs. Look at Ratt; Di Martini is a great player but obviously the late Robin Crosby wrote the music. I listen to Megadeth/Motohead/Arch Enemy/Nevermore at the Gym and Eric Johnson/Di Meola/Weather Report going to my office. About lyrics nothing can be worse than Fergie from Black Eyed Peas singing My Humps...Jesus you've got Ghetto nursry rhymes coupled with Ebonics in the top forty. In my day we had really stupid shit on the radio too; the list is endless B-52s,Bananarama,all those fag european keyboard bands...before Emo we had Bauhaus,the Smiths,Morrissey..that sorry "I'm so goth I could shit a bat"thing has been around forever too. To get to the point 1) the greatest guitarist whos ever lived can't save a shitty song only make it bearable. 2) NO ERA has ever had a monopoly on great or shitty music for that matter..That will never change
Its up to everybody to find out whats good or bad for themselves. Right now in some studio or club someones throwing down some awesome music while some cheeseball producer is "polishing a protools turd" from his latest "badass Gangsta"/Hot piece of ass(you know the clairol blond with the implants)/Reggaeton creation(ebonics now available in espanol) fresh off the cookie cutter/music assembly line. SORRY FOR THER RANT-to everyone on this board I congratulate you for doing what this great country was founded on: thinking for yourselves, having the pride to put hard work into the things you care about in order to change them(creating this board,deciding to play/creating,promoting/supporting real music played on guitars by real musicians) and most importantly agreeing to be able to disagree. I can't stand Emo but if Avenged Sevenfold inspires the next generation to start playing its a great thing. AS long as we have this forum and others passionately arguing about music/guitar playing we're gonna be all right.

[charvelguy]

Billy Gibbons rules.

[Endrik]

Billy Gibbons is da best.

NEWYEARKID...WTF??? Michael Jackson songs were awsome... brilliant songwriting.
bands who did lousy songs were Racer X and Cacophony. No one listened them because of the songs but because of the shredding.
But Michael Jackson is one of the greatest songwriters ever.

And since when Avenged Sevenfold is EMO?????

[Evol]

sorry evol, but I think bands like Slayer lick eggs.

Rock'n'roll has ALLWAYS been about image and partying...ALLWAYS. Starting from The Comets, Elvis, Beatles, The Stones etc. they all did it. This is fucking rock'n'roll.... and if people got tired of it... to bad.... but I don't care what the others like or dislike... I'm all about the good ol' rock'n'roll. That music is timeless, the songs are still played on the radio but all those whiney one hit wonders or underground thugs are forgotten.
Fuck even Lemmy said that the dudes in Motley Crue were way more badass and had more attitude than all the extreme metal guys. Hey, they are still selling out the biggest arenas.... people still like rock.

Lick eggs? Nice... and very Rock and Roll of you!

You don't have to like them,but they are still doing more or less what they've been since they came to be.And they are still relevant and popular to this day,if not more so now than they ever were back then.I guess that's part of my point,they were never one of those bands (obviously) in the whole makeup and hair,party hard scene,and they are still kicking ass.

But since you think rock and roll has always been about image and partying,then why do you think it's changed now?

Oh,and I'm not sure about where you're from,but you don't hear most of those bands on the radio,not mainstream rock radio anymore here in the U.S. Unless it's a classic rock station perhaps,or requests or one off nights,etc...