The DOUBLE STANDARD

[Endrik]

what kind of a pro musician learns from the tabs anyway for crying out loud?

[jgcable]

Many of you guys really crack me up. Back in the old days (late 70's- early 80's) most of us played crap for guitars and amps. I didn't know any 15 year olds with 13 guitars. There was virtually no exposure for a player except for the occasional battle of the bands and if you were a chick you would have to blow the AR guy and every manager and booking agent in town just to get noticed. Nowadays you can get a great playing guitar for $99.00 and a modeling amp for just a little more than that.
Back in the old days a $99.00 guitar was a Sears Silvertone or a Kay with action 1/8" off of the frets and crap pickups. The amp would usually be garbage too.
If you wanted to learn a song you would have to sit near the turntable and keep dropping the needle. We would also slow it down by using an eraser. If you wanted sheet music you had to go buy it.
Also, Tim, you mention that Randy's tone sucked. Well.. the gear you mentioned you had pretty much nailed Randy's tone back then.
Sure.. there were plenty of rigs around back then that had killer tone. I would venture to say that 90% of those rigs were untouchable by 15 year old kids and most of that gear wasn't even available in most of the US.
At 15... I had a paper route that paid $13.00 per week so $175-$275 guitars and JCM800's or X100B's were out of the question and I would venture to say they were out of most of ours back then. I only had 1 friend who we thought was rich. He got a $300.00 Hondo II Les Paul for Christmas and he had an old Fender Super Reverb amp. We thought he was the gear GOD around town. Maybe you were one of those rich kids back then. I certainly wasn't.
As for technology.. are you kidding me?? Internet, DVD's, instructional video's, online instruction, the gear!!! and the access to everything that is musical absolutely gives players of today a huge advantage over the old shred days.
There are so many kids nowadays that absolutely shred on guitar after only playing for a few years. Why do you think that is?

[Evol]

As for technology.. are you kidding me?? Internet, DVD's, instructional video's, online instruction, the gear!!! and the access to everything that is musical absolutely gives players of today a huge advantage over the old shred days.
There are so many kids nowadays that absolutely shred on guitar after only playing for a few years. Why do you think that is?

There were ALWAYS kids who could shred on guitar,it's just before you tube and myspace they never had a forum to expose themselves,i'm sorry but playing guitar has nothing to do with gear,you can learn just fine on a classical guitar armed with nothing but your imagination and come up with great stuff....

Look at all the greats from back in the day,they needed none of that,EVH ...Satch,RR ,Hendrix,on and on to the beginnings of the instrument. Hell even players like Yngwie,and Paul Gilbert ,Becker and Freidman and tons of others were tearing it up in their teens without all that modeling crap,without the internet,without computers, and on and on .

So that takes the technology out of the argument,now doesnt it?

[jgcable]

There were ALWAYS kids who could shred on guitar,it's just before you tube and myspace they never had a forum to expose themselves,i'm sorry but playing guitar has nothing to do with gear,you can learn just fine on a classical guitar armed with nothing but your imagination and come up with great stuff....

Look at all the greats from back in the day,they needed none of that,EVH ...Satch,RR ,Hendrix,on and on to the beginnings of the instrument. Hell even players like Yngwie,and Paul Gilbert ,Becker and Freidman and tons of others were tearing it up in their teens without all that modeling crap,without the internet,without computers, and on and on .

So that takes the technology out of the argument,now doesnt it?

No.. it doesn't. Technology makes everything better, faster and more reliable. Why would that NOT apply to guitar players?
Imagine what the future Yngwie's will sound like. Better yet.. listen for yourself!! Go on Youtube or that Chops from hell website and listen to the countless teenagers sitting on their beds in their bedrooms tearing up the fretboards only after a few years of playing. It took the old guys like Becker, Friedman and Gilbert alot more than a few years and anyway.. they are the extreme exceptions. They are the Arnold Schwartzeneger's of guitar playing. And since I mentioned a past super body builder.. the current crop of heavyweight bodybuilders are all bigger and better than Arnold ever was. What about cars.. I suppose you are going to tell me that cars from the 70's and 80's were better than the cars of today. Well.. I will answer that for you. Not in any way shape or form.
Why do you suppose that is??? Technology!
What about computers?? Am I to assume.. using your brain busting logic... that the old Commodore 64 or Amiga and that ancient Timex Sinclair were better than todays computers?? I guess technology does have something to do with EVERYTHING in our culture.
Technology for a typical guitar player back in the mid to late 70's was an MXR Distortion + sometimes plugged into a parents 8 track home stereo.
I had a drum machine too back then!! It was a wind up metronome. I practiced until my fingers bled and then I would glue them back together with crazy glue. I would have killed to have access to the stuff young punk guitar players take for granted nowadays.
Back to the topic at hand.... that girl has no right being in the latest issue when there are so many great unknown players out there. Like I said earlier.. its not about talent or chops.. its about selling magazines.

[hippietim]

Many of you guys really crack me up. Back in the old days (late 70's- early 80's) most of us played crap for guitars and amps. I didn't know any 15 year olds with 13 guitars.

Dude, I grew up in that era in the DC area. Getting hold of a decent rig was just not that hard. I didn't have 13 guitars. I had 2 to 4 at any given time - always at least one electric and one acoustic. I was always trading gear. Most 13 year olds today don't have 13 guitars. Neither do most adults today.

If you wanted to learn a song you would have to sit near the turntable and keep dropping the needle. We would also slow it down by using an eraser.

Did you grow up with the Flintstones? I used my mother's cheap cassette recorder that had a half speed switch. I never used a turntable to learn tunes.

Also, Tim, you mention that Randy's tone sucked. Well.. the gear you mentioned you had pretty much nailed Randy's tone back then.

Yep. I could nail Randy's tone. But I didn't. Using that same gear, you could actually turn the knobs to tones that didn't sound like a buzzsaw.

Sure.. there were plenty of rigs around back then that had killer tone. I would venture to say that 90% of those rigs were untouchable by 15 year old kids and most of that gear wasn't even available in most of the US.
At 15... I had a paper route that paid $13.00 per week so $175-$275 guitars and JCM800's or X100B's were out of the question and I would venture to say they were out of most of ours back then. I only had 1 friend who we thought was rich.

You should have gotten a better job. I was making $50-100 a week as a busboy once I turned 15.

And this wasn't just me. All the kids I jammed with worked and got reasonable gear. Back then used gear was a steal - at least 50% off of street price (not list) and very often more like 75%.

There were a couple of kickass stores in the DC are for serious bargains. Rolls Music in Falls Church had tons of used gear - they were assholes to deal with and they didn't give you shit on a trade-in but they sold lots of used gear cheap. Then there was Veneman Music - they had a store in VA and a couple in MD and every year they had a "May Day" sale. We would camp out for that sale - I got a San Dimas Charvel Explorer brand new for $275 one year. Then there was Chuck Levins - they're still around and still my favorite music store ever - they had great deals on used gear back then. I was up there a couple weeks ago and they had almost none. Ebay and the Internet have just about killed off getting killer deals on used gear.

[jgcable]

Dude, I grew up in that era in the DC area. Getting hold of a decent rig was just not that hard. I didn't have 13 guitars. I had 2 to 4 at any given time - always at least one electric and one acoustic. I was always trading gear. Most 13 year olds today don't have 13 guitars. Neither do most adults today.



Did you grow up with the Flintstones? I used my mother's cheap cassette recorder that had a half speed switch. I never used a turntable to learn tunes.



Yep. I could nail Randy's tone. But I didn't. Using that same gear, you could actually turn the knobs to tones that didn't sound like a buzzsaw.



You should have gotten a better job. I was making $50-100 a week as a busboy once I turned 15.

And this wasn't just me. All the kids I jammed with worked and got reasonable gear. Back then used gear was a steal - at least 50% off of street price (not list) and very often more like 75%.

There were a couple of kickass stores in the DC are for serious bargains. Rolls Music in Falls Church had tons of used gear - they were assholes to deal with and they didn't give you shit on a trade-in but they sold lots of used gear cheap. Then there was Veneman Music - they had a store in VA and a couple in MD and every year they had a "May Day" sale. We would camp out for that sale - I got a San Dimas Charvel Explorer brand new for $275 one year. Then there was Chuck Levins - they're still around and still my favorite music store ever - they had great deals on used gear back then. I was up there a couple weeks ago and they had almost none. Ebay and the Internet have just about killed off getting killer deals on used gear.

Like I said Tim.. you were one of those rich kids!

[jgcable]

I grew up in Port Chester, NY and I guess for some reason.. all the rock and metal dudes I hung out with were all broke. My parents had an 8 track stereo but I didn't even have a cassette player until I was around 17 if I recall. I know I had an underdash 8 track player in my car until I graduated from HS in 1979.

[hippietim]

One thing we had going for us back then was that there were a lot more places to go play music. The live music scene today is pathetic. Even a Tuesday night in the suburbs would have all sorts of places to see live bands. Lots of places would host jam nights. That's where you get good. One night on stage with a shit hot band will make you a lot better musician than a month of guitar masturbation with DVDs, CD-ROMs, Youtube, etc.

I occasionally go to open mic nights around town and it's sad. Nobody can just get up and jam. If you call a tune and write out some changes they act like you're speaking Klingon and the funny little chord letters are from some long lost Aztec alphabet or "I'm not real familiar with Cinnamon Girl - who does that?". Uh, yeah, sure.

I've had the same problem when we audition players. These guys show up and they have no clue - "what do you mean I'm not playing it right, I'm playing just what the tab I downloaded said." These dumbasses can't even pick out stupid simple pop-rock tunes because they've never actually sat down and learned a song.

One of the last auditions was a guy who could noodle pretty fast (but not in any particular key) and sure could squeal the strings but when our singer called out "Pride and Joy" this guy looked like a squirrel about to be run over by a tractor trailer. Then we played "What is and what should never be" and instead of playing that nice clean rhythm part he was chugging barre chords on the heavy channel on his JCM 2000. By the second verse he realized he wasn't even in the ballpark so he decided to play licks and squealy tricks instead - obviously that would be the way to enrich the delicate mood of those verses. Still not satisfied with the results he did my favorite guitar player trick of all time - he leaned down to listen to his speakers, scowled, and started fiddling with the knobs eventually arriving at what sounded like the exact same settings.

[hippietim]

Like I said Tim.. you were one of those rich kids!

Yeah, crazy stuff - I worked.

[jgcable]

One thing we had going for us back then was that there were a lot more places to go play music. The live music scene today is pathetic. Even a Tuesday night in the suburbs would have all sorts of places to see live bands. Lots of places would host jam nights. That's where you get good. One night on stage with a shit hot band will make you a lot better musician than a month of guitar masturbation with DVDs, CD-ROMs, Youtube, etc.

I occasionally go to open mic nights around town and it's sad. Nobody can just get up and jam. If you call a tune and write out some changes they act like you're speaking Klingon and the funny little chord letters are from some long lost Aztec alphabet or "I'm not real familiar with Cinnamon Girl - who does that?". Uh, yeah, sure.

I've had the same problem when we audition players. These guys show up and they have no clue - "what do you mean I'm not playing it right, I'm playing just what the tab I downloaded said." These dumbasses can't even pick out stupid simple pop-rock tunes because they've never actually sat down and learned a song.

One of the last auditions was a guy who could noodle pretty fast (but not in any particular key) and sure could squeal the strings but when our singer called out "Pride and Joy" this guy looked like a squirrel about to be run over by a tractor trailer. Then we played "What is and what should never be" and instead of playing that nice clean rhythm part he was chugging barre chords on the heavy channel on his JCM 2000. By the second verse he realized he wasn't even in the ballpark so he decided to play licks and squealy tricks instead - obviously that would be the way to enrich the delicate mood of those verses. Still not satisfied with the results he did my favorite guitar player trick of all time - he leaned down to listen to his speakers, scowled, and started fiddling with the knobs eventually arriving at what sounded like the exact same settings.

I agree. There are alot of tab and session players who don't have a clue.
Open mic nights confirm that.
I also agree that the live club scene sucks.

[Evol]

No.. it doesn't. Technology makes everything better, faster and more reliable. Why would that NOT apply to guitar players?

A guitar is still wood,and strings,it takes practice,period,there are no shortcuts,and no technology that will magically make you play better,that ONLY comes from hard practicing. Period.

Imagine what the future Yngwie's will sound like.

Like Yngwie.

Better yet.. listen for yourself!! Go on Youtube or that Chops from hell website and listen to the countless teenagers sitting on their beds in their bedrooms tearing up the fretboards only after a few years of playing.

And yet,is anyone playing anything any different than was already accomplished 20+ years ago???? I mean c'mon with all this awesome technology that makes everything so much better,why oh why are we still hearing the same fucking exact licks and techniques? It's like nothing progressed....oh sure we have 7-string shredders,but oh no...Vai already did that in the 80's.....

Tappers....oh my EVH had that going in the 70's

Sweepers....Yngwie beat them to it,yes in his teens in the 80's ....

String skipping...cool,except Eric Johnson and others already were doing it...

Where's this awesome NEW SHIT????

It took the old guys like Becker, Friedman and Gilbert alot more than a few years and anyway.. they are the extreme exceptions. They are the Arnold Schwartzeneger's of guitar playing. And since I mentioned a past super body builder.. the current crop of heavyweight bodybuilders are all bigger and better than Arnold ever was.

I knew plenty of great guitar players in their teenage years,and was fortunate enough to even play side by side with a few,there have ALWAYS been kids tearing it up in their bedrooms,you just havent seen it in mass until now with the advent of a vehicle (you tube and my space etc) to promote themselves with. I knew a kid who could make your jaw drop playing anything popular of the day note for note,Vinnie Moore,Satch...there was a 15 year old Mexican kid in my town (who only owned 1 strat mind you) who did a SRV tribute,and blew peoples minds,and we're talking in South Tx,where if you're gonna do a SRV tribute,you better bring it.

So,yah,I've seen it with my own eyes,it's always been there,the "technology" is only showing you what you couldn't see before.

What about cars.. I suppose you are going to tell me that cars from the 70's and 80's were better than the cars of today. Well.. I will answer that for you. Not in any way shape or form.
Why do you suppose that is??? Technology!
What about computers?? Am I to assume.. using your brain busting logic... that the old Commodore 64 or Amiga and that ancient Timex Sinclair were better than todays computers?? I guess technology does have something to do with EVERYTHING in our culture.

You're comparing inanimate objects to musicians? Huh? What?
Where did that "brain busting" logic come from?

I mean if you were to compare the drivers of said cars or perhaps users or programmers to the musicians,then that comparison would make sense.

But no,if you suck at driving a car,then it doesnt matter how nice of a car it is,if you suck at using a computer it doesnt matter how much RAM it has. Same principle.

Technology for a typical guitar player back in the mid to late 70's was an MXR Distortion + sometimes plugged into a parents 8 track home stereo.
I had a drum machine too back then!! It was a wind up metronome. I practiced until my fingers bled and then I would glue them back together with crazy glue. I would have killed to have access to the stuff young punk guitar players take for granted nowadays.

Once again the things you are talking about have nothing to do with a guitar,or playing the actual instrument. How on earth would you have to practice any less to achieve your current level of ability? How on earth does that make any sense at all?

Back to the topic at hand.... that girl has no right being in the latest issue when there are so many great unknown players out there. Like I said earlier.. its not about talent or chops.. its about selling magazines.

She has every right,she's a guitar player who obviously enjoys what she's doing and is getting fullfillment out of the sheer joy of playing....if that alone inspires other people's kids to pick up the instrument or ANY musical instrument then it's only a good thing.I would much rather see kids playing instruments than video games or tearing up shit,but then again that's just me.

[slash-ed]

I would tend towards jgcable's opinion...

The advent of technology and the internet certainly HAS made it easier for aspiring guitarists to learn faster and more easily. Granted there would have been kids who learnt their favourite shredder's stuff note for note by slowing down the record and listening to it over and over again... but that takes time and effort, whereas with instructional vids and the internet as a reference point, it's as easy as Paul Gilbert himself explaining what lick he plays in Song X, and the theory behind it, rather than spending hours figuring it out by yourself... and only days later have the theory behind it click.

Maybe it's a shortcut, and maybe you guys find it more acceptable to have "paid your dues" by slowly finding your own licks and style over the years... but that's just the way it works these days.

And with respect to that girl on Youtube / Guitar Player... just loving playing the instrument is not enough to merit being put in a magazine. You don't put kids who are average at playing, say, basketball, on the face of a sports mag just cos they love it. You put them on there cos they're GOOD, have something special that others don't, or are unique.

My 2c

[Endrik]

If you wanted to learn a song you would have to sit near the turntable and keep dropping the needle.

that is absolutely the best way to develop your ears and own style... all who did it like that have 10 times better relative pitch than the players today

Go on Youtube or that Chops from hell website and listen to the countless teenagers sitting on their beds in their bedrooms tearing up the fretboards only after a few years of playing.

jeez, they are horrible, scales scales and more scales. No style, character and uniqueness at all. Can't tell a difference who is who.

These guys show up and they have no clue - "what do you mean I'm not playing it right, I'm playing just what the tab I downloaded said." These dumbasses can't even pick out stupid simple pop-rock tunes because they've never actually sat down and learned a song.

Fuckin' A!!!

[hippietim]

I wouldn't disagree that the tools available today are better. I just don't believe for a minute that it is making better guitarists or producing them any faster. The technology is giving everybody a much more public voice.

For every amazing shred-o-matic player on Youtube there are literally hundreds of average or downright awful players. That is about the same ratio as when I started playing.

There was this kid in junior high school who could play fantastic. It wasn't shred stuff per se because that didn't exist, he was playing fusion and bebop stuff which is substantially more difficult to play from a musical perspective than most shred. He had been playing for about 3 years when I first met him. He just practiced a lot. He had one guitar - a used beat up 335 copy. He was learning Return to Forever, Wes Montgomery, and DiMeola stuff. I was just getting to the point where I could play Hendrix, Stones, the Who, and Rush and here was this kid our age playing crazy shit.

I just don't think the results today are much different in the end.

[shredmonster]

I would also agree with jgcable. I used turn tables also. Although practice time and methods may have not changed much.

But I think the point here is that the wealth of information is at your fingertips these days. Back in the day there was nothing but formal guitar instruction books (like Mel Bay or something) and records.

No videos, no tabs, etc.... Everything was by ear. No way you can tell me you can get as good as fast as today - no way. Now you can see techniques on video and play them over and over again. You get them tabbed out, someone goes over them slow and up to speed.

Evol you don't get it. Back in the day a guitarist never even got an opportunity to see other people's techniques, styles or tricks and licks.
They were not available on any medium. Dude you may be too young to know what it was like.

And the gear was shitty. There were no superstrats, no Floyd Rose, etc...
Everything was 16 bit for christ sakes at best.
You could get some decent sound but not like today. Even the 80's was a major step up in sound technology.

Nobody here is saying anything about practice and experience or talent. These things are stil the same. The point is all things being equal.....

Teaching methods and technology just like in every other field has made a difference in guitar playing.

The opposite of this argument is that guitar playing and learning has not progressed at all. And I don't buy it.