The Downfall of Dream Theater

[Spivonious]

the list would be bigger than fett's posts

here's my fav. not only the riff but the whole song

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TkDrAAODXbQ&feature=related

That's pretty good. Not quite exact, but the same general progression and form.

[Endrik]

DT is actually pretty good compared to most of the bands who claim to be prog these days (yes claim, everyone likes to concider themselves progressive even if they are not)
despite that DT has a whiney melodramatic singer, lame bassist and a habit to rip off other bands... they actually have pretty cool sounds... Petrucci guitar sounds pretty awesome and the keyboard sounds are pretty tasty... and the drums sound like drums (early albums excluded)... Symphony X for example has the cheesiest gay MIDI keyboard sounds and drums have horrible trigger clicking tonality.... YUK!!! and there are a lot worse
and DT has more "groove factor" than most... so that's good
I wish Petrucci would play his leads with more balls, Mike would stop doing the same drum fill (wich he stole from Vinnie Colaiuta) all the time, Myung would play like a BASSist, they would change the singer and start writing some SONGS.

[Endrik]

consequently, i'd really like you to point out some songs/song parts/riffs they stole that ended up on one of these records - although any record prior to TOT would let's say satisfy my curiosity.
and please let me just add that this is not supposed to be a challenge or an offense towards you personally; i'm merely interested in why you think of DT as one of the most shameless copycats in this genre, and what led you to this conclusion.

before I heard DT I was a huge classic prog rock fan (you know all the British classics... Pink Floyd, Genesis, Yes, King Crimson, Moody Blues, Soft Machine, Can, Marillion etc.) and of course Rush. I also was a big fan of King's X and Queensryche.
so when I was introduced to DT (I think it was Image & Words and Awake album) I thought it was kinda ok but a lot of things sounded awfully familiar.
So I went through all the DT albums and find some stuff that I dug... most of it was boring and some stuff was something I've heard before.
So I went through most of the Rush albums and some other bands and voila... it was so obvious how much DT has ripped off other bands. They have stoled from all the bands I mentioned before.
There's so many tunes where DT are using some Rush lick, riff, chordal work or something else. First it's not that obvious because DT tunes have many different sections but once you start analyzing you'll see it yourself.
But not only Rush... they like mix all kinds of licks/riffs together. You know the weird sounding unison line full of stops and off beats... like in Metropolis (if I remember correctly) is stoled form Al Di Meola.
Some off beat drum breaks along with heavy groovin guitar riffs are taken from King's X "Don't Care" from Dogman album. btw. I think that album influenced them to start using low tunings and heavier sounds.
Once I saw some Mike's drumming video and there was a part how they are making their songs. And basically there was this chart where there weren't riff 1, riff 2, verse, chorus etc. there was something like this... Meshuggah, Marillion, Rush, Meshuggah 2, Metallica, Genesis etc. They didn't stoled everything from them of course but it still was pretty funny. It pretty much shows that they rely on other bands a lot.
I don't have nothing against when bands use ideas that are SIMILAR to other bands' material (they use awfully a lot that sort of thing too) but when you take something directly from other band and don't even bother changing the rhythms and notes then it kinda pisses me off.
The ultimate low is when you rip off the entire song. Like they have done with Linking Park and Muse tunes.
They are obviously big fans of all kinds of music and love their influences very much but It's the time to let the music come out from inside not outside.

[Downfall]

DT is actually pretty good compared to most of the bands who claim to be prog these days (yes claim, everyone likes to concider themselves progressive even if they are not)

Which bands are you referring to? I mean I think some of the bands today who have a "progressive" label on them are absolutely awesome.

Bands like Between the Buried and Me and Protest The Hero have literally threw the "verse chorus verse solo chorus" out the window, and are doing something new and fresh. I mean, Between.... have 11 minute songs and they don't have designated spots for solos or anything, it's just part of the music, and with Protest the Hero, the rythms involve complex tapping and atonal chords. I don't consider Coheed and Cambria and Mastadon prog, I mean rehasing Zepplin and Rush riffs isn't my thing.

Since somebody mentioned Symphony X, I just wanted to say when I saw them supporting DT, me and my Dad stood there watching them and we said how the guys were quite old, and seemed a bit dated and out their depth to say the least. I mean the lead singer shouted "ARE YOU REAAADDDY TO ROCKKK???" and the place fell silent, "Rock" is a very dirty word amongst prog metal fans.

[Endrik]

shit like Kamelot and Adagio

[Endrik]

"Rock" is a very dirty word amongst prog metal fans.

yes, that's why those fags don't get laid either... pussy is too dirty

[Fragle]

Bands like Between the Buried and Me and Protest The Hero have literally threw the "verse chorus verse solo chorus" out the window, and are doing something new and fresh. I mean, Between.... have 11 minute songs and they don't have designated spots for solos or anything, it's just part of the music, and with Protest the Hero, the rythms involve complex tapping and atonal chords.

the thing with those bands you're refering to is that they do not make me feel anything really...sure, they know how to play, that goes without saying, but their music is just not doing it for me. maybe it's because i don't "get it". you talk about the verse chorus blabla formula being thrown out of the window, but let me ask you: why? that very formula is only known as such because most people like to listen to music that has a certain well defined structure. of course, the very basic formula you just brought up is most popular in well, popular music but lots of metal is also based around it, with a few breaks here and there to keep things interesting without destroying the song structure as such.
and that's my main gripe with those modern day prog bands really...they just don't write songs, but instead looong series of riffs patched together without any sense or purpose - but as i already said, maybe i just don't get it.
what i DO get however is that DT used to write the same "formulatic" way (and with TOT basically sticked to this formula 1:1 on most songs, just with a really extended solo section)...take images and words for example. their songs have well defined verse, chorus, bridge, solo sections that all clearly stand out as such. the difference to "normal", not prog bands is that those sections don't just feature the very same riff(s) repeated throughout the song (for example the same riff being played for verse 1 as well as verse 2) but instead consist of different riffs, and often more than one. take the pull me under intro for example: starts with the clean melody, then the other instruments come in one after the other, other guitars are layered, and finally the dumdum-dumdum-dumdum stakatto part that leads (imho) perfectly into the first verse. the listener can easily understand that the part he just listened to was the intro even though it was more than just one riff being repeated 4 times like it's common in most metal or music in general.

and while i'm not familar with the other band you mentioned, as far as i am concerned there are only VERY few bands that can get away with using dissonant chords for many riffs yet they still write songs rather than just noise. nevermore and opeth would be the first two examples that come to my mind. using dissonances is fine - and very cool actually! - as long as it fits the song, but with many of those wannabe prog bands i just get the feeling that they sat in their rehearsal space thinking "ok, let's write an evil sounding song. therefore we'll take some wide fast tapping sections, a few diminished chords here and there, have the drums play random tempo changes, and voila, here's our super fresh sounding prog song that's eeeevil and br00talz".

once again, i'm not trying to diss the technical abilities of those bands, actually i'd love to be able to come up and play some stuff like they do (once in a while that is)...my point is, many modern day "prog" bands (including the latest DT ) just write in a technical fashion for the sake of technique rather than writing actual SONGS that really make people FEEL in a certain way (still getting shivers when thinking of the last metropolis I chorus) while incorporating a lot of different and difficult melodies/riffs/rhythms/whatever....after all music is about feelings and emotions - my .02$ though.

[toejam]

I like DT. I don't know why, but I always feel compelled to buy their CDs. I enjoy the new one, Systematic Chaos, a lot. Sometimes James Labrie's singing bugs me, especially live. If they had Ray Alder from Fates Warning on vocals, then all might be okay with the world (even though he doesn't hit the high notes and use his voice like he used to either).

[Downfall]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcNWXDfKMnM&feature=related
Check that out, that's Protest the Hero's video "Bloodmeat", to me it's very catchy but there is no defining song structure to it, and it isn't heavy for the sake of heavy and br00tal, it's prog at it's best IMO.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChNolV4QZd4
That is Between the Buried and Me's video to "Mordecai", now most of this is REALLY heavy, talking Grindcore/Death Metal style, then in the last few minutes of the song, it progresses into some what of a Jazzy movement, from growling vocals to singing. IMO this is genius, but I leave it up to you.

[kmanick]

I like a lot of the Dream Theater stuff "Train of Thought", "6 Degrees" and
"Systematic Chaos" get lots of play time at my house. (I love the 7 string stuff)
I think "Protest the Hero" is pretty cool, they have some interesting stuff.
"Between the buried and me" loses me with their vocals.
I'm sick of people screaming at me. Anything that ends with "core" doesn't interest me and grind/death metal vocals have never really cut it with me.
Musically I really like what they're doing.
I have the same problem with Opeth.

The problem I find with alot of the "Prog" bands is that they are musicians writing music for "other musicians".
My brother eloquently describes it as a bunch of musicians writing so called "songs" so they can show off their technical prowess.
I think he's got a point.
I mean how many non musicians do you know, that even know who Dream Theater or Symphony X are?
Bands like Nevermore that a bit more straight ahead metal but have lots of cool technical sections in their tunes grab my attention a lot more than most of the "Prog" bands out there.
I think this is a lot easier to listen to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7ee577jg14

[Spivonious]

Fragle - excellent post. That's why I don't like new DT (say from ToT onwards). There's a definite riff-riff-wankfest-riff-riff feeling instead of song-song-song. I will admit that Systematic Chaos is moving in the right direction though.

Symphony X was a wankfest neoclassical band that has pretty much abandoned wankery for the sake of wakery on their past few albums (let's say V onwards). Their latest album is full of just good catchy songs, and yeah there's some guitar pyrotechnics too.

Opeth was amazing, but they seem to be running out of steam and ideas. Ghost Reveries sounded like a mashup of riffs from previous albums. Haven't heard the new album yet though, so maybe Mikael will turn it around.

Nevermore. What can I say? They just keep getting better and better with each album. I wonder how their next album will sound though, since they're without a rhythm guitarist and apparently Smyth had a lot of influence on Godless Endeavor. I definitely don't consider Nevermore to be a prog band though. Just good all-around metal.

Favorite albums (songs) of aforementioned bands:
DT - Images & Words (Metropolis Pt. 1, Under a Glass Moon, Take the Time)
Symphony X - tie between V and Paradise Lost (Fallen, Revelation, Seven, Domination)
Nevermore - Godless Endeavor (Godless Endeavor, Sentient 6, Born)
Opeth - My Arms Your Hearse (Karma, April Ethereal, Epilogue)

edit: oh and Erdinger weissbier is the best beer I've ever had.

Kmanick - I don't know any non-musicians who have heard of DT, but I do know lots of non rock musicians that do.

[airjamie]

A recent study by UCLA concluded that Dream Theater is the leading cause of erectile dysfunction among men age 19-45 in the United States (#2 worldwide, following ManOwaR).

[Endrik]

A recent study by UCLA concluded that Dream Theater is the leading cause of erectile dysfunction among men age 19-45 in the United States (#2 worldwide, following ManOwaR).

that is so true

[StukaJU87]

Downfall of the Cowboys. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYu68SHWh64

[psychlops]

I believe that's Rena with the Charvel Model 6...

I didn't know she played in Vixen..rock on, shit..