Sickest fucking breakdown ever.

[Spivonious]

What would be YOUR definition of jazz then?

Unless you want to tell me that an accomplished jazz musician is just a 1st year music student.

To me, Jazz is music based on chords rather than function. Your standard classical piece is based on function.

For example, classical in E Major is all based on E and uses the E Major scale (with an increasing number of exceptions the later in time you go, but it's always based on function, even when it moves into a different key).

Jazz example - E7-Gb9-Fm7-Eb11-E7. Each chord has its own scale over top.

Weird rhythms are not inherent in any genre. There are plenty of 20th century classical composers that used weird rhythms and atonal scales/12-tone system. See Bartok, Schoenberg, Kodaly, etc.

Meshuggah, at least this one song, is very elementary when it comes to rhythms and seemed to be all based around that one root note, which I guess is Bb since people here have said they tune down a half step.

I'm not familiar with the musicians in the band, so I can't say they're not talented. All I'm saying is that this song is extremely boring and does not show any musical talent beyond what a first-year music student would write. It's definitely not jazz.

Now, I don't expect high art music from a metal band. In fact, I expect quite the opposite: just good, catchy tunes/riffs. But to claim Meshuggah's music is some sort of highly complex thing is just silly.

For a metal band that actually does use complex rhythms effectively, see Andromeda (although they are admittedly much softer than br00tal Meshuggah.

[GodOfRhythm]

Meshuggah, at least this one song, is very elementary when it comes to rhythms and seemed to be all based around that one root note, which I guess is Bb since people here have said they tune down a half step.

But to claim Meshuggah's music is some sort of highly complex thing is just silly.

Firstly, that has always been one of their premises. Monotony is very much something inherent to Meshuggah's style and goals. Catch33 is almost hypnotizing to me.

Secondly, no, just no. In the rock/metal world, if that even exists, Meshuggah is pretty much insane. Haake is out of this world, the time cuts and syncopation!

[jesude22]

I mean musicality. Anybody can practice for 12 hours a day and be able to shred. The song in the video was just very boring to me and screamed "weird rhythms for the sake of weird rhythms."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac0KV9kJqlI

Trust me not anybody can practice for 12 hours a day and be able shred Allan Holdsworth styled solos, and plus some of these odd rhythms are actually difficult to play.

[Spivonious]

Firstly, that has always been one of their premises. Monotony is very much something inherent to Meshuggah's style and goals. Catch33 is almost hypnotizing to me.

Secondly, no, just no. In the rock/metal world, if that even exists, Meshuggah is pretty much insane. Haake is out of this world, the time cuts and syncopation!

Well, at least we both agree that it's monotonous!

I heard a lecture from a professor of music once. His theory was that the as people learned more about music, their tastes changed to include more complex music. Most people who like rap/dance music are very uneducated about music. Most people who like crazy 20th century atonal stuff are very educated about music.

Someone posted on this thread that they like listening to Meshuggah because they like to count out the odd rhythms and meters. Meshuggah is a good stepping stone to more complex music, but what they're doing (based on this one song) is very basic in the grand scheme of things, even just among rock/metal bands. Early Dream Theater, Andromeda, Watchtower, are all examples of bands that took it farther and succeeded.

[Spivonious]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac0KV9kJqlI

Trust me not anybody can practice for 12 hours a day and be able shred Allan Holdsworth styled solos, and plus some of these odd rhythms are actually difficult to play.

Can't watch YouTube at work, but you said "difficult to play", not difficult to write or difficult to work into a song structure. That is my point with the shred comment.

[GodOfRhythm]

Well, at least we both agree that it's monotonous!

I heard a lecture from a professor of music once. His theory was that the as people learned more about music, their tastes changed to include more complex music. Most people who like rap/dance music are very uneducated about music. Most people who like crazy 20th century atonal stuff are very educated about music.

Someone posted on this thread that they like listening to Meshuggah because they like to count out the odd rhythms and meters. Meshuggah is a good stepping stone to more complex music, but what they're doing (based on this one song) is very basic in the grand scheme of things, even just among rock/metal bands. Early Dream Theater, Andromeda, Watchtower, are all examples of bands that took it farther and succeeded.

I agree with you, but...

Your fallacy lies in that you judge this entire band and the musicians on this one song I posted, which you seem to honestly point out. That was more because of me totally going nuts behind my computer because of the breakdown. To state that they are mere infants in the musical world is just blatantly untrue.

I don't expect you to 'like' this music, not at all, but to deny their talent is unjust, imho.

I don't know why you included the little professor lecture...I've joined in those debates at college, on forums, in real life, etc...It always boils down to the subjective vs. objective. Though I agree with most he is saying. My nephew is hardcore into rap and hiphop and whatnot, the commercial variants, mind you, I tried getting him into 'classical' and rock, didn't work. Even the 'greats of the masses' like Beethoven and Mozart couldn't win him over, needless to say I never even tried letting him listen to Bartok, Mahler or Stravinsky.

Monotony is as much a part of the musical experience as anything else. I am very 'mood' orientated when it comes to music. I might want to just rock the fuck out, and I'll put on some AC/DC, a day later I might be in a hellishly introspective mood, so I might put on some of Mahler's work.

I don't really care about complexity that much anymore. I went through a phase where I did nothing but listen to Bach chambermusic because the virtuosity and kindred bond between those musicians was so interesting to me. Now, I listen to it because I think it's beautiful. Sort of the 'went full circle' thing I guess. Alternatively, I much enjoy going to a big party/club during college, get wasted and just let the beats and great elektro music carry me to new heights, which is an inspiring experience all by itself.

It's all a means to an end. If it's mindnumbingly simple blues, it might be the best stuff I've ever heard. If it's something that only a few select members of the musical scholastici can play, it might be the most beautiful thing I've ever heard.

Pretty much the: 'if it sounds good, it IS good' credo, with that little caveat, that 'what sounds good', hopefully encompasses (a lot) more in a year or 5 than what it does now. Which I think is the correct interpretation to be given to your professor's lecture.

Let's work Dragonforce into the discussion!

[jesude22]

Well, at least we both agree that it's monotonous!

I heard a lecture from a professor of music once. His theory was that the as people learned more about music, their tastes changed to include more complex music. Most people who like rap/dance music are very uneducated about music. Most people who like crazy 20th century atonal stuff are very educated about music.

Someone posted on this thread that they like listening to Meshuggah because they like to count out the odd rhythms and meters. Meshuggah is a good stepping stone to more complex music, but what they're doing (based on this one song) is very basic in the grand scheme of things, even just among rock/metal bands. Early Dream Theater, Andromeda, Watchtower, are all examples of bands that took it farther and succeeded.

Because Future Breed Machine isn't one of their more complex songs, check out New Millennium Cyanide Christ and Rational Gaze which is some of their later stuff, I keep forgetting we are talking about Future Breed Machine, Destroy Erase Improve is awesome but more or so "thrashy" and not as technical, stuff off of Chaosphere is better like New Millennium Cyanide Christ.

[Spivonious]

I agree with you.

Your fallacy lies in that you judge this entire band and the musicians on this one song I posted, which was more because of me totally going nuts behind my computer because of the breakdown. To state that they are mere infants in the musical world is just blatantly untrue.

I don't expect you to 'like' this music, not at all, but to deny their talent is unjust, imho.

I don't know why you included the little professor lecture...I've joined in those debates at college, on forums, in real life, etc...It always boils down to the subjective vs. objective. Though I agree. My nephew is hardcore into rap and hiphop and whatnot, the commercial variants, mind you, I tried getting him into 'classical' and rock, didn't work. Even the 'greats of the masses' like Beethoven and Mozart couldn't win him over, needless to say I never even tried letting him listen to Bartok, Mahler or Stravinsky.

I qualified all of my responses with "based on this song"

I included the lecture as an attempt to explain why there is such a disagreement here. Your nephew is a perfect example. If he was with a group of friends talking about Beethoven's 7th he'd probably say it sucked and that everything Jay-Z writes is 100x better. But take that argument to someone with a music degree and it would be the complete opposite. Of course, it's all totally subjective, but the professor's point was an attempt to explain why your nephew thinks Beethoven is crap, as opposed to just saying "oh he doesn't like classical."

I don't like Bartok, but I can appreciate what he was trying to do. With this example of Meshuggah, I cannot comprehend why they are heralded as expert musicians. I will check out the songs jesude recommended when I get home tonight and update my opinion

edit: Dragonforce! I got assaulted in that thread too! Perfect example of all technical skill and no musicianship.

edit2: dammit, you keep editing your post! Just a quick response - blues is structurally simple, and it can be very fulfilling to listen to. But no one says the blues man is complex.

[GodOfRhythm]

I qualified all of my responses with "based on this song"

I included the lecture as an attempt to explain why there is such a disagreement here. Your nephew is a perfect example. If he was with a group of friends talking about Beethoven's 7th he'd probably say it sucked and that everything Jay-Z writes is 100x better. But take that argument to someone with a music degree and it would be the complete opposite. Of course, it's all totally subjective, but the professor's point was an attempt to explain why your nephew thinks Beethoven is crap, as opposed to just saying "oh he doesn't like classical."

I don't like Bartok, but I can appreciate what he was trying to do. With this example of Meshuggah, I cannot comprehend why they are heralded as expert musicians. I will check out the songs jesude recommended when I get home tonight and update my opinion

edit: Dragonforce! I got assaulted in that thread too! Perfect example of all technical skill and no musicianship.

I agree with you, and I must say you are one of the first people I've come across to think of it similarly as I do, with noted exceptions. We'll agree to disagree on the Meshuggah issue.

De gustibus et coloribus, non disputandum est. [I since amended my post, you might want to read it again. Basically more of the 'agreeing with you' thing. ]

What you say about the Blues man, is exactly what I was (trying to) say(ing). Basically, listening to something or 'liking' something, JUST for the sake of its complexity, is, imho an inferior way of experiencing music and/or art. Tying it into what your professor was saying: it becomes a TRUE experience of the art once you listen to it and think it is grabbing and 'beautiful' (as in: emotionally impacting). Thus implying that someone who listens to music just because of its complexity is someone who 'hasnt grown enough' yet, or he would not judge or admire the complexity before the inherent beauty of the work of art presented. The chicken or the egg thing.

[Spivonious]

I agree with you, and I must say you are one of the first people I've come across to think of it similarly as I do, with noted exceptions. We'll agree to disagree on the Meshuggah issue.

De gustibus et coloribus, non disputandum est.

I since amended my post, you might want to read it again. Basically more of the 'agreeing with you' thing.

Ich kann nicht Latein sprechen/No comprende latino/Je ne parlez latin

and with the help of Babelfish...Ik spreek geen Latijn.

It's nice to have a discussion with another musically educated person (trying my best not to sound like a rich snob).

[GodOfRhythm]

and with the help of Babelfish...Ik spreek geen Latijn.

Just to be clear, I am not heavily academically trained in music, far from it. Save a few years of music school, I have no formal training whatsoever. As you might have noticed my approach to music is more philosophical than anything else.

I am 'the amateur' in my group of friends. Though I give them a serious run for their money on the philosophical approach, which most schooled musicians come round to anyway in the end, so I've noticed [not in any way implying I measure up to any of them]. Damn classically trained, proficient bastards!

[GodOfRhythm]

Actually I'm glad you mentioned Bartok, it gave me some very nice memories.

I hit it off with this girl one night at a dress-up party at college. She was dressed as a nurse, hot as hell, I had been too lazy to get a suited attire (pun fully intended), but we were both getting pretty hammered.


The night, and indeed morning ( ), ended as it should have. When we woke up we got into a discussion about music, I thought I'd get the typical r&b answer, when she lays on me that she is close to getting her masters in music and is a great fan of Bartok.

If I had a ring, I'd have proposed right there and then....Musician chicks, they make me tingle down below!

[Endrik]

first of all... jazz is based on swing... that pretty much says it all.... when the key element is a type of rhythm then the musicians with jazz backround first of all think rhythmically..

there's no swing in Meshuggah or even in a lot of modern jazz but the way of thinking is the same.

a lot of them don't play complex rhythms just for the sake of it... it comes out naturally from them.

go to Africa and listen to their percussionists/drummers... ridiculously complex polyrhythms and rudiments are natural for them... standard 4/4 with all the beats in 4ths or 8ths is very un-natural.

if a tune is based around a root note... then it's not because you can't play very well... it's more because you just wrote that tune because it sounds cool to you and creates a certain mood.

no need to make every tune chordally complex

even some great modal jazz tunes have a simple structure

Allan Holdsworth for example writes VERY VERY complex song structures and while he is probably the most amazing and technically superior guitarist... it can get boring in a while because the chords are there for the "mindboggling element" rather than for a hook

but Miles Davis wrote chord progressions so that they would be catchy... "So What" is the best example or even all the sick fusion stuff he did on Bitche's Brew has hooks.

even Coltrane's "Giant Steps" is kinda catchy... and that is some very very very sick shit.

at the same time a lot of those fanzy jazz dudes have made great funk and soul tracks where they basically play one chord

so it's all relative.... can't really decide musician's ability based on how much notes he has on a riff or chord progression

that being said... I don't agree with that professor at all... a lot of those avant-garde classical fans bash everything that's even a little popular... at the same time when a lot of hip-hop DJ's must listen to pretty much everything... hey how else they can steal cool samples

[Spivonious]

Just listened to New Millenium Cyanide Christ. Much better evidence of their rhythmic skills, but I have to agree with the others here when I say that their vocalist kills it for me with the monotonous shouting. Lots of syncopation going on, though a lot of it sounds like they just took a riff that's not in 4/4 and played it enough times to make it fit into 4/4, if that makes sense. So I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they knew what they were doing

Endrik - not all jazz has swing rhythms...very little jazz in fact, except for the popular stuff from the Big Band era. I'm also not trying to say more notes makes it better or more skilled. I was just saying that the song posted did not support the argument that Meshuggah is complex in any way. African drumming is crazy complex, and it all comes very naturally to them since they haven't been exposed to Western musical ideas. Meshuggah's song only used one note, in effect turning the guitar into a drum. I'm not saying simple songs are bad; I'm saying simple songs are simple.

[Endrik]

Endrik - not all jazz has swing rhythms...very little jazz in fact

what?????