Sickest fucking breakdown ever.

[zeegler]

Anyway...I personally couldn't give two shits about jazz. Jazz is boring, self indulgent crap.

Speaking of breakdowns, I'm going to see Hatebreed this Sunday. Fuck yeah! No lame-ass jazz there!

[Endrik]

Jazz is boring, self indulgent crap.

that's one of the stupidest things one can say... jazz was a music made for fucking and dancing

the first jazz musicians were Creole's (mostly with French and African roots) in New Orleans area who played in brothels... they developed music wich made fucking better. It also answers this:

African drumming is crazy complex, and it all comes very naturally to them since they haven't been exposed to Western musical ideas.

Creole's had the rhythms of Africa and Western musical ideas (mostly from French music). Notice how they didn't abandon their rhythms... the thing wich was their identity.

When jazz ensembles were born... it became a dance music.

Self Indulgent my ass.

BTW. hadrcore was born thanks to jazz.... all the members of Bad Brains are trained jazz musicians and before they invented hardcore they only played jazz-fusion

[thetroy]

He's probably talking about jazz like Holdsworth plays. I agree that he might be the best technical guitarist on the planet, but most of his music does nothing for me.

[VitaminG]

He's probably talking about jazz like Holdsworth plays. I agree that he might be the best technical guitarist on the planet, but most of his music does nothing for me.

most likely.

You could say the same thing about metal, about it being boring self indulgent crap, if your only exposure is one bad example (see: Dragonforce). I could say I hate jazz because of all the dixieland banjo & the charleston dancing. I hate metal because it's all bodybuilders draped in fur loincloths and fake blood singing songs about being metal warriors.

But just like metal, there are many forms of jazz & you can't tar the whole genre with a single brush.

[Spivonious]

I hate metal because it's all bodybuilders draped in fur loincloths and fake blood singing songs about being metal warriors.

But that's why I like metal!

MANOWAR KILLS

[zeegler]

Bad Brains invented hardcore?:ROTF:

[Endrik]

"invented" is a bad word.... but they were the first ones

[drockilles]

The definition of "hardcore" has definitely been altered over the years, anyway. Band like DRI, Bad Brains, Black Flag, Minor Threat were the originals, a more aggresive style of punk. Now hardcore seems to be used to describe any band with a bunch of breakdowns and screaming. Hatebreed, Agnostic Front, Earth Crisis, Vision of Disorder, etc. I thought one of the best bands in the "newer wave" of hardcore was Snapcase.

[zeegler]

The definition of "hardcore" has definitely been altered over the years, anyway. Band like DRI, Bad Brains, Black Flag, Minor Threat were the originals, a more aggresive style of punk. Now hardcore seems to be used to describe any band with a bunch of breakdowns and screaming. Hatebreed, Agnostic Front, Earth Crisis, Vision of Disorder, etc. I thought one of the best bands in the "newer wave" of hardcore was Snapcase.

Dude, Agnostic Front have been around since 1982, the same time that DRI formed. They have always been hardcore. DRI, while great, certainly weren't "originals", any more than Agnostic Front were. Suicidal Tendencies and C.O.C. were both around at this time too.

It seems all you guys ever do is look something up on Wikipedia, and then post here pretending like you know stuff.

While I agree that Bad Brains were one of the seminal hardcore acts, they were in no way responsible for creating hardcore. They were punk rock fans that also liked metal. What does that tell you?

Regardless of what Wiki says, there are plenty of other bands that had a hand in developing "hardcore". I've always been a fan of Minor Threat, and Black Flag, but I think the Dead Kennedys and MDC were much more definitive of the term "hardcore". Besides, the Exploited, GBH, Discharge, and other British bands were doing the same thing at the same time. Bad Brains simply did what other bands did at the time, took punk rock and played it faster. It was a natural progression. Certainly nothing to do with jazz. In fact, I'd give more credit to Motorhead for influencing the direction that punk went.

[Endrik]

fuck wikipedia.... I've been a fan of Bad Brains for many years and many other old-school hardcore bands... I've seen plenty of interviews with Henry Rollins and other dudes who go way back and many of them thank Bad Brains for showing them the way. Their jazz backround let them play more technically and incorporate other styles of music compared to other HC bands durning that time.
I grew up with die hard punk fans and to them calling British punk acts "hardcore" was blasphemy... even Discharge. Hardcore was more US sound for them and that's one of the reasons I don't really consider bands from UK as HC pioneers. I too agree about them influencing the HC sound though... specially Motorhead. But even The Misfits are more HC to me than the Brits... but that's my problem. That being said Bad Brains in my opinion was the first with the classic Hardcore sound and style. And their more complex rhythms and instrumentation came from their "jazz" thinking. Btw. Things such as breakdown, blast beat and other elements of extreme music were used in jazz long before rock music existed.

[drockilles]

You're right Zeeg, I just look at wikipedia so I can be a charlatan. I couldn't believe when I looked and saw Avenged Sevenfold wasn't on their "hardcore bands" page. I was confused at first because I thought hardcore was just porn, that's what I was expecting the first time I went to a hardcore show, live sex.
Glad you set me straight.

[zeegler]

Well, that's what it boils down to right. It's all opinion. Of course Americans don't want to acknowledge British bands, especially The Exploited (Fuck the USA and all), because they want to take the credit. It's all semantics anyway. How many beats per minute does a band have to be before they are considered hardcore anyway? Does it really matter? No. I grew up listening to all this shit, and honestly can't agree that one band is responsible for shaping a genre that was barely discernable from its progenitor. It depends on what your definition of hardcore is, and it depends on your perspective. I do consider the British bands I mentioned to be 100% hardcore, as would a lot of other people. Consider that even the hated Wikipedia calls Discharge a "hardcore punk" band who formed in 1977. Since Bad Brains didn't switch to playing punk rock until some time in 1978, it's just not credible to say they created the genre.

Hey, if this aint hardcore, then I don't know what the hell is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0WgrGRawcQ

[zeegler]

You're right Zeeg, Glad you set me straight.

I know, and you're welcome.

[Endrik]

I used to wore out my The Explotied tapes when I was 12-13... that band was the shit for me then. I also remember some dude in my school brought "Beat The Bastards" cassette because he thought the cover was cool... he sold it to me in a couple of days basically for nothing... I guess he didn't dug the music... what a tool

I agree that Americans don't want to acknowledge British bands when it comes to punk. A lot of US punk fans or musicians have said so many times that The Sex Pistols wasn't such a big of a deal and no one in the states cared about them.

[zeegler]

I used to wore out my The Explotied tapes when I was 13-14... that band was the shit for me then. I also remember some dude in my school brought "Beat The Bastards" cassette because he thought the cover was cool... he sold it to me in a couple of days basically for nothing... I guess he didn't dug the music... what a tool

I agree that Americans don't want to acknowledge British bands when it comes to punk. A lot of US punk fans or musicians have said so many times that The Sex Pistols wasn't such a big of a deal and no one in the states cared about them.

Totally man. According to the American version of musical history. Punk rock was invented in the US too. So many people think the Ramones invented punk rock, it's not even funny. Wikipedia is so full of fucked up, biased information, that is propogates shit like this.

All I'm saying is that hardcore (as we know it, not the new stuff that sounds like metal) evolved simultaneously on both continents, and that at least a half dozen bands are equally responsible for that evolution.

As for the Sex Pistols. They might not have been the first, or the most original, but they fucking sold it. They had the biggest impact on the genre than any other band ever did, even if only for the simple reason that they were a media circus.

Oh yeah, me and a couple of friends used to walk around carrying one of those shitty old boomboxes listening to the Pistols, Exploited, The Dead Kennedys, etc, and generally piss off the general public. Good times.