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I am soooo sad after NAMM...

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  • #16
    Re: I am soooo sad after NAMM...

    I disagree with trying to turn the hands of time backwards and make Stratheads all over the place and making Jacksons neck-through-only. Those days are dead and have been for 20 years, and will be forever dead.

    I see no harm in bolt-on Jacksons. Bolt-on construction is less-expensive for both the manufacturer and the customer.
    I see no harm in a pointyhead Charvel. Remember, there was no pointyhead until Rhoads came along, so obviously Charvel put a Fender head on a Fender-shaped body. It's common sense. The LP head doesn't look right on a V or Star or Strat, so they all got Stratheads (or Gibson V heads on the few Vs).
    There's a fine line between "heritage" and "that's just how it was done". Stratheads are not the core element of Charvel's history, it's the neck profile. You can put a neck profile of a Strathead SD Charvel on a new Pointyhead Charvel and it will feel like a Strathead Charvel.
    The shape of the head has nothing to do with the feel of the neck, or the tone, quality, or playability. If it did, you'd all be playing Fenders.

    However, I must say I disagree with Fender's "cross-over" attempts i.e. neckthrough Strats and Teles, solid-topped Strats and Teles, and graphics on Strats and Teles.
    This, IMO, is definitely not the proper route for FMIC to go.
    Fender is synonymous with bolt-on construction. They did some experiments with set-necks, and they've had their few Custom Shop neckthroughs, but offering a production model Fender Strat or Tele with any sort of graphic, rear-loaded electronics (i.e. no pickguard), and neckthrough ala Jackson/Charvel while denying Jackson/Charvel equal use of the Strat head is a sh1tty way to be.

    Just as the Strathead is a Fender identifier, neckthrough construction is almost uniquely Jackson. Gibson had the first neckthrough - the Firebird. It was the only neckthrough production model Gibson, and is still the only neckthrough production model Gibson. Gibson are known as "the set-neck company".
    At the time that Grover was milking the hell out of neckthrough construction and carving that niche for Jackson out of the existing market, no one else was using it to the same scale. Carvin was still doing Gibson-style bodies and such, and did not start doing neckthroughs until the mid-80's AFTER Jackson's success. They may have had neckthrough basses, but not guitars.

    Now, having said all that, one could say "Ah, but then by that logic, Jackson/Charvel can't do bolt-ons, right?" Wrong. Fender is a long-established brand that isn't in danger of losing marketplace identity if a subsidiary uses a similar construction method.
    No one sees a Jackson KV-Pro from the back and says "Is that the new Fender? It's got a neckplate".
    They WILL look at the front of a Charvel Strathead and ask "Is that the new Fender model?", hence both Charvel AND Fender's images are blurred, which hurts both companies in the long run from a market-identity standpoint.
    Show the back of a neckthrough Strat and people will ask if Jackson's doing Strathead Soloists.
    If a Fender builder wants to play around with neckthrough, let him walk his ass over to the Jackson side of the shop and build a Jackson, but don't dilute Jackson's image by saying "Hey look, we can do neckthroughs as well".

    IMO the Charvel line should have stayed dead, and just introduced the current Charvel-branded models as Jackson models - dot inlays, full-size rear-loaded Strats, Stars, maple/rosewood/ebony, bolt-ons, single and double hums, v-trem and Floyd, two neck profiles (pointy and strathead), pointy headstocks, no binding, etc etc.
    Leave the traditional Jackson models (Dinky/Soloist, etc) with the fins and fins only (no dots), head and neck binding (even on imports), as well as both bolt-on and neckthrough construction, and the two Jackson-specific neck profiles.
    I want to depart this world the same way I arrived; screaming and covered in someone else's blood

    The most human thing we can do is comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

    My Blog: http://newcenstein.com

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    • #17
      Re: I am soooo sad after NAMM...

      Agreed. I am very disappointed by this NAMM show.

      The negatives have far outwieghed the few positives this time. Particularly with not offering a new strathead model (...after asking for input on preferences here, no less [img]/images/graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img] ), and basically cutting the available finishes in half with few new replacements.

      [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: I am soooo sad after NAMM...

        My main argument has been about the price gouging of the Charvel enthusiast not about which headstock the guitar should get. Last year they had the Warren crossed swords with a pointy headstock. To me it looked wrong. That graphic belongs with the Strathead IMO. I just think certain guitars look better with the different headstocks, that is why I think they should be optional. Obviously Newc your pro Jackson and anti Charvel. I am glad the Charvel name is back. If it wasn't for Charvel guitars, Jacksons may never have existed. Don't hate the original Hot Rod. "Charvel".

        [ QUOTE ]

        IMO the Charvel line should have stayed dead, and just introduced the current Charvel-branded models as Jackson models - dot inlays, full-size rear-loaded Strats, Stars, maple/rosewood/ebony, bolt-ons, single and double hums, v-trem and Floyd, two neck profiles (pointy and strathead), pointy headstocks, no binding, etc etc.



        [/ QUOTE ]
        You think the Charvels are having a hard time selling what do you think would happen to these. You now have resurrected the old Charvel Model series. Why would I spend more money for a Jackson when I can get one of the original Charvel model series for a fraction of the cost of a new guitar. The Model series are built like Sherman tanks, have good electronics, and good trems. The full sized strat bodied Jacksons have never sold as well as the old Charvels both SD and Model series.

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        • #19
          Re: I am soooo sad after NAMM...

          Because Jackson Strats didn't have the same neck profile as the Model models, plus Grover was pushing for Jackson to remain a neckthrough-only line.

          I'm not anti-Charvel. I've got an 83 Star and will order another later this year (still recovering from Christmas). I knew that as soon as the name "Charvel" was put back into the mix, people would make a scene about the Fender headstock. For that reason, the series should have stayed dead, because it's business suicide for Fender to allow a production-run Strathead model, and it's simply "bad form" to officially license your trademarks to a competing subsidiary.
          Unfortunately, no one else can see that because all they see is "Fender + Charvel = Charvel gets a Fender headstock again | does not compute".
          I want to depart this world the same way I arrived; screaming and covered in someone else's blood

          The most human thing we can do is comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

          My Blog: http://newcenstein.com

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: I am soooo sad after NAMM...

            Whatever the long term outcome, there's nothing that excited me much at this NAMM......my personal thoughts are that while this is trading on the past, J/C should consider making limited runs of 'famous guitars' where copyright allows - Warren D's graphics and snakeskin, Jake's black, blue and white guitars, Danny Spitz' trans black and korina XTRRs, Mustaines Arizona etc....

            I would have thought that the fans and collectors (who, let's face it many of the NAMM 'one-offs' are made for - who else will buy a series of 4 korina Shannons or a double neck pointing in different directions?) would be really excited by that, even if it is looking backwards rather than forwards....

            Again, just my thoughts / wish list though!
            Popular is not the same as good
            Rare is not the same as valuable
            Worth is what someone will pay, not what you want to get

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: I am soooo sad after NAMM...

              [ QUOTE ]
              Because Jackson Strats didn't have the same neck profile as the Model models, plus Grover was pushing for Jackson to remain a neckthrough-only line.

              I'm not anti-Charvel. I've got an 83 Star and will order another later this year (still recovering from Christmas). I knew that as soon as the name "Charvel" was put back into the mix, people would make a scene about the Fender headstock. For that reason, the series should have stayed dead, because it's business suicide for Fender to allow a production-run Strathead model, and it's simply "bad form" to officially license your trademarks to a competing subsidiary.
              Unfortunately, no one else can see that because all they see is "Fender + Charvel = Charvel gets a Fender headstock again | does not compute".

              [/ QUOTE ]

              I read your first post and I agree with some of the points (Shredder's CS 24 fret neck through Charvel be damned [img]/images/graemlins/poke.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/notworthy.gif[/img]), I have always connected bolt ons with Charvel and neck throughs with Jackson (not trying to offend, that is just my perspective).

              However, while I understand fender's FEAR of losing the rights to the headstock generally (thus all the lawyer stuff), do they honestly believe that s-head Charvel's will take away from the the fender market. [img]/images/graemlins/bs.gif[/img] I have not purchaused a regular fender product in 20 years and I cant be alone.

              True market genius is to control the MARKET any way you can and be ADAPTIVE (and thus I felt that fender make a smart move buying Jackson in the first place). fender should not care where the money comes from and instead make sure that no matter what is hot, thay have a piece of the action (unlike the 80s and those little stickers they are placing on the back of the Charvel s-heads do serve a purpose in making sure there is no quesiton as to where the rights originate).

              As far as Jackson goes, while I applaud the apparent effort to pump up Jackson this NAMM, the signature model endorsees leave something to be desired in a big way (and I think FF is a great band, but that is not the point).

              I for one am happy to see Charvel back, but I think that fender is either unsure what to do with Charvel or a little surpised that the 30-40 year old set is not rushing out in droves to get ripped off buying certain over priced models to recapture youth. May have looked good on paper, but it just shows that they really do not get it!

              Charvel has its origins as a custom shop. Letting people order what they want is what put the brand on the map (that they make some cool inovations and awsome guitars did not hurt either!). IMHO, forcing people to accept things the way they were because that is how it always was is exactly what led to Charvel in the first place.

              [img]/images/graemlins/rant.gif[/img]
              "I''ll say what I'm gonna say, cuz I'm going to Hell anyway!"

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: I am soooo sad after NAMM...

                [ QUOTE ]
                Charvel has its origins as a custom shop. Letting people order what they want is what put the brand on the map (that they make some cool inovations and awsome guitars did not hurt either!). IMHO, forcing people to accept things the way they were because that is how it always was is exactly what led to Charvel in the first place.

                [/ QUOTE ]

                Agreed 100%.

                ...Oh, and no offense taken. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] However, isn't that guitar also 100% consistent with the founding concept of the custom shop? i.e., Giving you anything you can dream up, no limits. It's exactly what I wanted, traditions be damned. Even though I also prefer those traditions as general guidelines. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I just wanted to break the rules with that one.

                And that's exactly what the custom shop should be able to do. No limits. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: I am soooo sad after NAMM...

                  And as a "small fish in a big pond", J/C could offer that kind of service, however, now that they've grown into a bigger fish, it becomes a question of sink or swim. If they do not reduce the number of options available, they can't stay competitive. If they can't stay competitive, they can't stay in business.
                  It is impossible for a company with Jackson's volume of business to survive in the as a total custom-shop, or even to rely on Custom orders for over half of their revenue. You HAVE to have a production line, and it has to strike the delicate balance between service and supply; you offer fewer options to reduce the turnaround time and thus lose a few customers, or you stick to your old ways and never adapt and lose ALL your customers because you can't fill the orders.

                  Whether FMIC's justification is logical or not, it is their headstock and they have every right to dictate its use. The Charvel and Jackson brand names are still competing brand names, regardless of their past/origins.
                  I want to depart this world the same way I arrived; screaming and covered in someone else's blood

                  The most human thing we can do is comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

                  My Blog: http://newcenstein.com

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: I am soooo sad after NAMM...

                    I would love to own a new Charvel.But 2300 bucks for a 1200 dollar guitar just isn't smart on my part.That being said(as my opinion)what drives the market for these guitars? I don't hear many of you guys buying Charvels,you buy Jacksons.
                    Straightjacket Memories.Sedative Highs...........

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                    • #25
                      Re: I am soooo sad after NAMM...

                      I'd love a new Charvel Star, and I definitely agree that $2300 is overkill, however that's MSRP, not Street (unless you shop at GC or MF [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img])

                      I don't think the Charvel line will do as well as anyone hoped, mostly because the Stratheads are Limited Edition special run deals that cost waaaaaaaaaay too much, and there is not a comparable model in the production line.
                      So far the EVH production models are the only ones that will be getting a Strathead (that I'm aware of), but at $2500 each, they're not going anywhere fast.

                      The new USA Charvel line will be in the same boat as the USA Jackson line - competition from the Used market. Why buy a brand new USA Charvel when you can buy an older Japanese-made Model model that is made just as good if not better?

                      Newc
                      I want to depart this world the same way I arrived; screaming and covered in someone else's blood

                      The most human thing we can do is comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

                      My Blog: http://newcenstein.com

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: I am soooo sad after NAMM...

                        Exactly!I love the red s/h in the NAMM picture thread,but I also know I have a mint 3DR that has a OFR, plays like a champ and cost less than a third of what they would want for it! I just don't see what Fender is seeing as driving that market.
                        Straightjacket Memories.Sedative Highs...........

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: I am soooo sad after NAMM...

                          [ QUOTE ]
                          I'd love a new Charvel Star, and I definitely agree that $2300 is overkill, however that's MSRP, not Street (unless you shop at GC or MF [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img])

                          I don't think the Charvel line will do as well as anyone hoped, mostly because the Stratheads are Limited Edition special run deals that cost waaaaaaaaaay too much, and there is not a comparable model in the production line.
                          So far the EVH production models are the only ones that will be getting a Strathead (that I'm aware of), but at $2500 each, they're not going anywhere fast.

                          The new USA Charvel line will be in the same boat as the USA Jackson line - competition from the Used market. Why buy a brand new USA Charvel when you can buy an older Japanese-made Model model that is made just as good if not better?

                          Newc

                          [/ QUOTE ]

                          And on that we see eye to eye! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
                          "I''ll say what I'm gonna say, cuz I'm going to Hell anyway!"

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: I am soooo sad after NAMM...

                            John Walker showed me a Strathead Star w/ Hot Rod Flames today (he was keeping it in a case off to one side - not on display - to get opinions on it from various people like Warren DeMartini, some JCFers, etc). This Star was to be the new S-head for this year, but JW said there were a few details on it that weren't right (neck shape, logo size, etc). He talked to me at length about his love for the old Charvels going back to '83, how Mike Shannon can shape Charvel necks using his "muscle memory", about using JW's and other JCMI employee's old Charvels, templates, and pics to make sure the S-heads are correct. I'm nowhere near a S-head expert; I let JW talk as he seemed really "on fire" about this subject.
                            Also, John W is the guy who pushed FMIC to even get Stratheads authorized. Starting with the 25th, then the limited models from last year.
                            "Quiet, numbskulls, I'm broadcasting!" -Moe Howard, "Micro-Phonies" (1945)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: I am soooo sad after NAMM...

                              JW definitely seemed like he was interested in JCF'ers opinions at Summer NAMM. Tekky and I brought up the discussion we've had on the board about getting Jackson to offer "small" changes to production models (reverse head SL1, maple instead of ebony, hardware color specs, etc) at little to no cost, and he said they were working on streamlining production techniques that may allow for such things.
                              Lots better than saying "Fck no, that means one person has to walk one guitar around the shop from station to station and that's like work and stuff" [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
                              I felt sorry for the guy cuz he had to "entertain" Ed Roman in front of the EVHs [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

                              Of course, like a dumbass I didn't even videotape his interview for the NAMM show where he discussed the EVH series [img]/images/graemlins/brow.gif[/img]

                              I've got tons of vacation time this year, and Indy's only a few extra hours away than Nashville (400+ miles to Indy, 256 to Nashville - no biggie). I enjoyed Summer NAMM and am seriously thinking about trying to go again this year, but I'd love to sit and talk with people at the booths and film it - sort of like interviewing them and letting them tell about their products (smaller places like Krank and such), and with the artists about the stuff they're endorsing, as well as their musical stuff (like Jerry Donohue at the Alvarez booth or the guy with the Halford Cowboy outfit that endorsed Reverend Guitars - he was in a GW issue just after NAMM in the Hometown Heroes section).

                              Of course, if I could introduce myself to them as being "from" somewhere (i.e. JCF or some other "official/unofficial" source) they might agree more readily to such interviews.
                              I'd also like to do video reviews of the lesser-known stuff that might be plentiful in bigger areas like NY or LA, but those of us out in the sticks may never see (like Johnson, Turser, etc). That'd be a big help in the "Guitars By Other Manufacturers" forum.
                              I'm off that weekend as well [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
                              I want to depart this world the same way I arrived; screaming and covered in someone else's blood

                              The most human thing we can do is comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

                              My Blog: http://newcenstein.com

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: I am soooo sad after NAMM...

                                Go for it, Newc; JW and Mike K. know me as Ron from the JCF and they always take time out to let me "interview" them every year.
                                "Quiet, numbskulls, I'm broadcasting!" -Moe Howard, "Micro-Phonies" (1945)

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