played a San Dimas yesterday

[RR05xx]

Re: played a San Dimas yesterday

This thread has lasted longer than I would have expected. I think that some of the models are overpriced (and it is obvious why) but I do think that the new pointies kick @ss and i put my money where my mouth is.

16 mos and counting.....

[Big D]

Re: played a San Dimas yesterday

I've purchased two new USA Charvels in the past couple years, both were around $1,600.....and worth every f-ing penny. I can't wait to see what's coming this year, I suspect I will have more Charvels by the end of '06.

JC Marketing Guy - thanks for the good work, keep it up and tell the guys at the shop Happy Holidays from a satisfied customer.

[hippietim]

Re: played a San Dimas yesterday

I think the basic Charvel models are overpriced - it's tougher to say with the custom shop although the prices I've seen people getting quotes on are pretty comical. A solid color v-trem single humbucker guitar that costs in the $1500 range is just too damn much money for what it is. There is no doubt about it in my mind. There are many fine USA made guitars that cost less that are every bit as well made from other makers.

Comparing list price "back in the day" to the list price today and adjusting for inflation is not a meaningful comparison unless all other factors scale the same. Are the guitars built the same way now as they were then? Have there been no improvements in the manufacturing process since then? Have all the other costs remained relatively the same? Also, back then a lot of us were living at home or some buds and not too much in the way of financial burdens. Now with a house, a couple car payments, etc. the dent is different. I'm sure some of you will say this is not valid but this is how the decisions are made. I see it all the time when people make gear purchases - single guys with at most their girlfriends in tow walk into a guitar store with a dramatically different perspective than a dad from the burbs with 3 kids.

Then there's the fact that these guitars don't hold their value worth a darn. You can say that's not why you bought it or maybe you have no intention of ever selling it or whatever but most of you do. And most of you have had to take a bath on them. I see Bullseyes, 25ths, and very, very recent Custom Shop guitars only fetching $800-1200 in minty condition - that pretty much rules out buying a new one for me unless it is something truly remarkable. This has of course worked out well for me since I scored several used guitars in excellent condition and the one I didn't want only took a 5 minute IM exchange with a buddy to sell for what I paid.

I think Chuck's point was very simple and very valid. I can get an original SD pointy Charvel for about half the cost of a new one - why buy a new one? Someone said the new ones are identical to the old ones so they would never buy an old one again since they can get exactly what they want. Even if that is true, we're talking serious bucks. Getting one exactly like you want puts you in the $2k street price range without anything particularly special about the configuration.

And Kev, I'm not sure what the MSRP of a car has to do with this unless you meant to point out that a lot of custom shop Jackson/Charvel guitars have similar MSRP stickers.

[Drsracing]

Re: played a San Dimas yesterday

Word Up

[jcmktgguy]

Re: played a San Dimas yesterday

[ QUOTE ]
I've purchased two new USA Charvels in the past couple years, both were around $1,600.....and worth every f-ing penny. I can't wait to see what's coming this year, I suspect I will have more Charvels by the end of '06.

JC Marketing Guy - thanks for the good work, keep it up and tell the guys at the shop Happy Holidays from a satisfied customer.

[/ QUOTE ]

MANY THANKS!! WILL DO!! (I will forward your post to them).

Happy Holidays to you and thanks for the support! [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[jcmktgguy]

Re: played a San Dimas yesterday

Comparing costs today vs. yesterday using the CPI is a world wide accepted standard, which is why I used it. We have made quite a few improvements to manufacturing efficiencies, which saves us a few dollars and increases quality and consistency. However, as I mentioned, wood costs have skyrocketed, as well as EPA/OSHA required processes and fees for waste management. So much for those manufacturing cost savings! Then add in Workers Comp, Health Insurance, and other benefits, as well as new upgraded equipment (all of which were NEVER offered or considered back in the day), and you can see how our currentl prices are actually a pretty good value. Whether or not you agree with that fact doesn't matter. It is what it is.

I am a husband with 2 kids (8 and 9 1/2). I can fully relate to the purchasing mindset you are referring to. I can't go out and buy every new toy I want. However, when I do save up a few bucks and decide to buy, I don't mind spending the extra money to get the best. I work my butt off for my paycheck. I'm not going to settle for a lesser product. I research my purchase, look for the best deal (taking into account both service and price) and then make my purchase without settling for something I view as second best.

If you find guitars that you feel are as good or better than a Charvel or Jackson for a cheaper price, buy them! I don't want anyone to pay their hardearned money for one of our guitars and feel like it wasn't worth it.

Dollar for dollar, I feel that we give great value for the money.

Re-sale value is not a consideration for me with guitars or other things I decide to buy (OK, that excludes my 401k and other investments, including my house). If I find a guitar (or car or TV or a lamp) that I like, I buy it and I do not consider the resale value it will have when and if I decide to get rid of it. Any guitar in the $1500 and up price range is going to have a re-sale value of about 40% - 50% of the MSRP. It works the same for any high dollar item. Look at a BMW 7 Series (I never looked at one, but have a cousin who did). New they are well over $75K. If you go in to buy one, the salesperson will tell you to lease it rather than buy it due to the depreciation hit it will take in the first 12-24 months. After 4-5 years you are lucky to get $20K for one. Yet, BMW sells tons of them every year at FULL STICKER price (some people get lucky and can negotiate a small discount).

Again, I repsect your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.

[img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[shreddermon]

Re: played a San Dimas yesterday

[ QUOTE ]
I think Chuck's point was very simple and very valid. I can get an original SD pointy Charvel for about half the cost of a new one - why buy a new one?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tim, this is exactly why I feel many of these "overpriced" opinions are invalid. You prefer the originals because, as a used guitar, they're cheaper. But that's true of anything that is used. Guitars, amps, furniture, cars, whatever. It's an economic truism. But just because used gear is cheaper than new, doesn't mean that the new gear is overpriced. It's reasonably priced for new gear.

[ QUOTE ]
Someone said the new ones are identical to the old ones so they would never buy an old one again since they can get exactly what they want. Even if that is true, we're talking serious bucks. Getting one exactly like you want puts you in the $2k street price range without anything particularly special about the configuration.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, this is a similar issue. You may not think it is "special" because you don't mind buying used guitars that someone else has spec'd many years ago. But, for many of us who love the concept of custom ordering, the ability to spec a brand new guitar and have it built to our personal preferences is worth every penny. I'll take my own preferences on a brand new guitar over someone else's ideal specs from 20 years ago (with the battlescars to match) any day of the week. And I'll gladly pay those new/used and custom shop "premiums" to do it.

Don't get me wrong - the SD originals are great guitars. I love them. And I respect everyone, like yourself, who prefers that route instead. But - to me - since I can get new ones that are made true to the originals' again, they're just another used guitar. Great, high quality, cool guitars. But used guitars, nonetheless.

A few years ago, the situation was different: you couldn't readily get a new one that was "true". I suspect that, given the many years of their absence, many of the "old school" guys are having a hard time caring to change their habit / preferences for the old ones. Because, really, there were no other options. But now there is: we've been the opportunity to relive the 80s guitar-building heyday.

I think that's why many folks - like myself - view the "overpriced" arguments as seriously unfair. And potentially even hurtful to the Charvel brand. Let's not blow that opportunity with unfair comparisons.

[RR05xx]

Re: played a San Dimas yesterday

I hate to admit it, but well said and I agree for the most part Shredder.

[Ralph E.]

Re: played a San Dimas yesterday

Well, everyone has their point of view. I just look at it like this...

I used to have around 50 guitars, most of them "nice" guitars, played good, etc. When it came time to buy a house and do other things in life, most of them got sold and I now keep the "collection" around 7 guitars at any one time. What I learned when I did this was that I appreciate owning 6 or 7 "kick-ass" guitars rather than 50 "nice" guitars (for me anyway). So when I decide to buy a guitar, I'd rather shell out some extra cash and in return get EXACTLY what I want. I could probably search the rest of my life and not find an original orange Charvel w/matching headstock like Shreddermon's, but I can order it and have it built to exact specs and have it in about a year. From my point of view, that freedom and satisfaction is worth every penny.

[BYeh1]

Re: played a San Dimas yesterday

LOVE the new action this thread is getting, I come back after 1 day and there's 50 unread new posts! Reminds me of the Bud light commercials...

"TASTES GREAT!" vs. "LESS FILLING!"

[img]/images/graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

[Budman68]

Re: played a San Dimas yesterday

[ QUOTE ]
LOVE the new action this thread is getting, I come back after 1 day and there's 50 unread new posts! Reminds me of the Bud light commercials...

"TASTES GREAT!" vs. "LESS FILLING!"

[img]/images/graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="aqua">miller lite........ [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] </font>

[hippietim]

Re: played a San Dimas yesterday

Actually Shreddermon, I don't disagree with you or Sully or Kevin or Ralph at all in almost all respects of what you say. It's just that I agree with Chuck as well.

You guys are talking about tweaked custom guitars with exacting specs. It's hard to place a value on how much more something like that is worth - that's a pretty individual thing. I am in the process of getting a quote on a Jackson C/S guitar so I really do "get it" and as anyone that knows me at all can tell you I am more than willing to pay for quality.

But, if you want a basic solid color Charvel which we know is a pretty common thing then buying a new one makes no sense at all unless you are really stuck on the no battle scars thing. A new standard Charvel is just overpriced IMO when you compare it to other guitars with similar features that are made in about the same fashion. You are definitely paying a premium for the logo on the headstock.

JCMktgGuy, you say that a used guitar in the $1500 club will sell for 40-50% of MSRP. Please point me to those buyers. For starters, most of the time we can buy them new for around 40% of MSRP. I know of a number of dealers sitting on Bullseyes, 25ths, Custom Shop, and NAMM Charvels that are letting them go at or near 50% off. Take the 25th Anniversary model for instance. The list is $4k. IIRC, the MAP price was around $2700 when they first came out. Most dealers were selling them for several hundred dollars less. Now Musician's Friend has them listed for $2000 (I guess MAP has dropped a lot). I just got one for under $1300 in stellar condition on Ebay. That is not a good resale value for that guitar. I think you must have meant to say that a used Charvel is worth about 40-50% of it's street price, not MSRP.

BTW, I don't even own an SD Charvel now but I do own 2 EVH's and a 25th.

[hippietim]

Re: played a San Dimas yesterday

[ QUOTE ]
I think that's why many folks - like myself - view the "overpriced" arguments as seriously unfair. And potentially even hurtful to the Charvel brand. Let's not blow that opportunity with unfair comparisons.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get that. Why is it unfair to point out the competition even if it is the older guitars? That is the marketplace.

I don't see how the comparisons are hurtful either - I'd love to hear why you think that.

Let's face it, there are a gazillion guitar builders out there and some absolutely fantastic parts houses out as well. Charvel has some excellent competition from these folks, it's own legacy, and even from it's parent/sister companies/organizations within FMIC/JMIC. That is the marketplace plain and simple. It really is quite simple IMO, either Charvels are built and priced right or they fizzle out again. I think they are built right - every bit as good to me as the old ones.

[shreddermon]

Re: played a San Dimas yesterday

[ QUOTE ]
So when I decide to buy a guitar, I'd rather shell out some extra cash and in return get EXACTLY what I want. I could probably search the rest of my life and not find an original orange Charvel w/matching headstock like Shreddermon's, but I can order it and have it built to exact specs and have it in about a year. From my point of view, that freedom and satisfaction is worth every penny.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] If I only bought used, I could have many times more guitars than I currently own. But that doesn't spin my top as much as ordering/owning my own thing.

That doesn't mean I don't own anything used / SD original. Nor do I completely forgoe purchasing something like that where I think it's majorly cool.

But my personal stable is heavily weighted towards my own custom orders and some new USA production guitars, because that's what I value most. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Many folks are more into the vintage/collecting thing than I am. And the price equation certainly help that. If those folks don't prefer paying new prices, fine. That's their choice, and I respect it. It's all cool - personal preferences.

But when that personal preference turns into criticisms wanting "something for nothing" - a new/custom guitar but at a used/replica price, I've got to disagree. And, IMHO, it's grossly unfair to criticize the manufacturer for the difference between those markets.

Also - as a sidebar - isn't it interesting to note that this "overpriced" discussion only seems to center around Charvel-land? How many times have you heard someone say that the Jackson bolt-ons (DK1, PC1) were way overpriced? Next to never. I'd ask the critics stay open-minded and ponder the reasons for that.

[hippietim]

Re: played a San Dimas yesterday

[ QUOTE ]
Also - as a sidebar - isn't it interesting to note that this "overpriced" discussion only seems to center around Charvel-land? How many times have you heard someone say that the Jackson bolt-ons (DK1, PC1) were way overpriced? Next to never. I'd ask the critics stay open-minded and ponder the reasons for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've noticed that too. I'm with you there. The PC-1 in particular. Having said that, I'm in on the PC-1 CS run with the blue trans flame finish [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]