Light weight Alder/Upcharge

[LastInLine]

What kind of tone will I get from the Swamp Ash compared to alder or Mahogany?

Remember when someone finally suggested that maybe the world wasn't flat? Well here's a theory for us all: I submit that the type of wood used to constuct a solidbody electric guitar will have a negligible effect on the sound. The pickups and the amp will be the primary factors, not to mention the tone controls on both. Can anyone out there even explain in scientific terms how the wood actually effects the overall sound? Unless you are worried specifically about the weight or are going for a transparent finish, I say go the cheapest route. Am I crazy?

[tanpsi]

Remember when someone finally suggested that maybe the world wasn't flat? Well here's a theory for us all: I submit that the type of wood used to constuct a solidbody electric guitar will have a negligible effect on the sound. The pickups and the amp will be the primary factors, not to mention the tone controls on both. Can anyone out there even explain in scientific terms how the wood actually effects the overall sound? Unless you are worried specifically about the weight or are going for a transparent finish, I say go the cheapest route. Am I crazy?

I also would be curious to see some scientific/engineering stuff on this.

[Zerberus]

Remember when someone finally suggested that maybe the world wasn't flat? Well here's a theory for us all: I submit that the type of wood used to constuct a solidbody electric guitar will have a negligible effect on the sound. The pickups and the amp will be the primary factors, not to mention the tone controls on both. Can anyone out there even explain in scientific terms how the wood actually effects the overall sound?

Yes, but it would completely destroy the confines of any internet forum.

The entire theory that goes into sound calculations as far as their relevance to stringed instruments is a 6 month part of professional luthierie training over here, and quite complex... If you can give me an idea on how to get 6 months of extensive study and training into 4k words or less, I´ll do my best. Cripes, I´ve written 12k word /3 post essays on just how your choice of pick audibly affects tone and why over @ SD

Unless you are worried specifically about the weight or are going for a transparent finish, I say go the cheapest route. Am I crazy?

Not necessarily crazy, but with all due respect I´d wager to say that you probably haven´t built too many guitars or played too many different ones solely for the purpose of acoustic comparison. By your reasoning, a 3/4 Les Paul will sound exactly the same as a 6 string baritone strat, as long as they use the same Pickups and Amp. In my experience, both casual and professional, this could not be farther from the truth. Even 2 identical guitars can sound quite different...

BTW: I)IRC there was a 100$ or so upcharge on the sub camos, and 1 K is just insane..... I can´t imagine this being anything but a misprint or a mistake on the part of whoever processed your quote

That said: when did they start quoting CS orders again?? I thought they had stalled that purposely so as to alleviate their backlog issues?

[dg]

Like Zerberus said, it's a very complex & controversial topic. The best explanation I've been able to find is that every aspect of the guitar's construction, the woods used, type of bridge, nut, neck joint, etc. has an effect on which frequencies are accentuated or cancelled out. This directly affects the string vibration as the note rings out & decays, and therefore it is transmitted through the pickups. One part of the argument that often comes up is whether the body vibrations have a direct affect through the pickups. I need to have that part explained. I know you get sound through the amp if you tap on the body, even with no strings on the guitar, so is there some kind of microphonic thing going on, even with potted pickups?

This guy gives a pretty good simple explanation & has a nice tone wood guide, too:

http://www.bothner.co.za/articles/bodywoods.shtml

[jackson1]

I know you get sound through the amp if you tap on the body, even with no strings on the guitar, so is there some kind of microphonic thing going on, even with potted pickups?

I think the pickup cables, running inside the body (touching the body) are also contributing to this microphonic output, as a result of the energy introduced by tapping on the body.

[mattsmusiccenter]

The upcharge wasn't just for lightweight alder, part of it was because you specified an exact target weight.

I have seen this discussed here on occassion, so I requested it for my CS Charvel. I just got a quote and found out it is a $925.00 upcharge. I guess the Light weight Alder they use for the import Jacksons is only sold in Japan?

[toejam]

Well here's a theory for us all: I submit that the type of wood used to constuct a solidbody electric guitar will have a negligible effect on the sound.

Please share those drugs with the rest of the class.

[tanpsi]

Like Zerberus said, it's a very complex & controversial topic. The best explanation I've been able to find is that every aspect of the guitar's construction, the woods used, type of bridge, nut, neck joint, etc. has an effect on which frequencies are accentuated or cancelled out. This directly affects the string vibration as the note rings out & decays, and therefore it is transmitted through the pickups. One part of the argument that often comes up is whether the body vibrations have a direct affect through the pickups. I need to have that part explained. I know you get sound through the amp if you tap on the body, even with no strings on the guitar, so is there some kind of microphonic thing going on, even with potted pickups?

This guy gives a pretty good simple explanation & has a nice tone wood guide, too:

http://www.bothner.co.za/articles/bodywoods.shtml

Thanks, that's pretty helpfull, I have noticed that 2 guitars of the same model can sound a little different.

[MEX3]

Care to share the target weight? Just curious if it's rediculously low to justify the rediculously high upcharge.

[LastInLine]

By your reasoning, a 3/4 Les Paul will sound exactly the same as a 6 string baritone strat, as long as they use the same Pickups and Amp. In my experience, both casual and professional, this could not be farther from the truth. Even 2 identical guitars can sound quite different...

The 3/4 L.P. - baritone strat comparison is an extreme example. Now were getting into different scale length's, string tension etc....Regarding your statement that "2 identical guitars can sound quite different", I would think that could be more a product of slight variations in pickup windings, magnet strength, volume and tone pot resistance, capacitor values (which usually have a tolerance of up to + or - 20%) and such.

[Predator1]

Target weight was 8lbs or less.

[LastInLine]

Please share those drugs with the rest of the class.

And from a JCF Admin no less. Nice!

No drugs here my friend. Maybe you can explain to me why it is you think I'm on drugs? Could you put a blindfold on, play an alder Fender Strat, a swamp ash Fender Strat, and then tell me which was which?

[toejam]

Yes, the one with swamp ash will sound brighter and have slightly less midrange than the one with alder, and mahogany will sound darker and warmer, with more low mids, than both swamp ash or alder. Any more questions about tonal properties of wood? Your so-called "theory" about wood having a negligible affect on sound is wrong.

[Zerberus]

I think the pickup cables, running inside the body (touching the body) are also contributing to this microphonic output, as a result of the energy introduced by tapping on the body.

Last I checked copper, silver, polysol, enamel, rubber and plastic weren´t magnetic and thereby as a direct result not = microphonic for the purposes of the electrical system in question (a low voltage inductor circuit with a bandpass filter and a passive volume control). But in theory if we were working with a powered system with a significantly higher output it may make an audible difference, though.

The upcharge wasn't just for lightweight alder, part of it was because you specified an exact target weight.

AHAAA!!! That more than explains it.

By specifying an exact weight you not only have the standard "lightweight alder" increase, but now some poor sod has to physically go to the warehouse and start weighing every single body blank / pre cut body on hand that´s made of alder. And THAT takes a shitload of time that would otherwise never be necessary, as well as keeping him from being able to do anything else until he finally finds that perfect piece.

If you specified an exact target weight in the sense of "The guitar should weigh exactly 8 pounds), the price upcharge from most smaller luthiers would be higher then JCMI´s total guitar price

Care to share the target weight? Just curious if it's rediculously low to justify the rediculously high upcharge.

Wholly irrelevant. Even if he wanted it to be heavier than normal or just "typical", by quoting an exact number he still forces them to send someone over and weigh every blank / pre cut body in the target wood... the difference in time and thereby cost is exactly zero.

[Zerberus]

The 3/4 L.P. - baritone strat comparison is an extreme example.

That´s exactly why I chose it.

Now were getting into different scale length's, string tension etc....

Waitasec, are you saying you honestly think that .5 lb of tension per string has more of a tonal effect than something that changes the mass and density, and thereby the resonant frequency, of the ENTIRE SYSTEM?

In automotive terms it would be very much akin saying your steering wheel and gas pedal have more of an impact on your vehicle´s overall performance then the engine and tires. That´s the difference in impact we´re talking about here.

Regarding your statement that "2 identical guitars can sound quite different", I would think that could be more a product of slight variations in pickup windings, magnet strength, volume and tone pot resistance, capacitor values (which usually have a tolerance of up to + or - 20%) and such.

While there are tolerances in practically all electronic components as you stated, the electronics and hardware are generally the most consistent part of luthierie. The electronics are also by far the smallest subsystem of most guitars, so it´s also kind of illogical to assume that their impact will be greatest....

Again, while you may think so, everything I´ve ever studied, taught, built, played, repaired or listened to leads me and thousands of my peers worldwide to belive otherwise. Once again, it´s not something that can be explained in depth or even decently tangented in the setting of an internet forum, at least not in an informal fashion and discussion as is here the case. What I can recommend to you as a cheap and easy experiment is to grab 2 identical strats and swap over the entire pickguard from one guitar to the other, recording clips of each setup. Measure everything with a micrometer before you take it apart, and put it together exactly the sanme way (including direction of screw heads and such). I guarantee you that both guitars will sound almost identical to the way they did with their original guards, effectively ruling the electronics of 2 identical guitars out as a major factor

I honestly ask, why would we keep using expensive exotic woods and such if they had no impact other than the instrument´s visuals? Why would so many dozens of sites have descriptions of the tonal pproperties of different woods if these differences didn´t exist? If the difference isn´t real, why is there a general consensus on exactly how different woods sound? Why do we even build bodies that can mount more than the hardware?

And if the wood doesn´t make a difference, then why are we still using it at all considering the myriad of immensely superior synthetic alternatives that are available.