What corners were cut on the production models

[85 San Dimas]

If you want a NEW Charvel that isn't made by the custom shop - this is it!

If a person wants a new Charvel not made by the Custom Shop then IMHO they don't want a Charvel. They want something that looks like it, has the decal, etc. , but is inexpensive enough to pry wallets open. Voila: So-Cal.
In all honesty not all can afford 2300 and not all want to pay that. (That's why there is a used market) I understand the affordability problem, but unfortunately that's what a Charvel costs.......

At least I would like to think that there is a "No Fender Guys Allowed" sign at the door to Charvel's paint booth!

..and I think if they hung a no Fender guys sign on the entrance to the paint booth then I think the color choices would shrink to one: bare wood. It just wouldn't make any sense to task a seperate paint crew to run Charvel only. Not enough units involved and money savings is a big deal on these to hit price point. I love your enthusiasm for the line though.

Rock on Charvel/Fender/FMIC, whatever!

Of those choices I think "Whatever" is probably most accurate for So-Cals. Again, I didn't say they weren't good guitars. What they "are" was what we were originally trying to figure out. And also, I'm not taking a big issue with your post. I'm having a little fun with it, but I do seriously believe only the Charvel CS is "Charvel".

[Jacksonite]

Be careful...they may fight!

[Bionic]

just to play devil's advocate

here are a USA tele and SD2
and a USA Strat and a SD1

SIDE BY SIDE...

they arent the same...

Be careful...they may fight!

[Jacksonite]

just to play devil's advocate

here are a USA tele and SD2
and a USA Strat and a SD1

SIDE BY SIDE...

they arent the same...

[jet66]

The body is routed slightly different vs. a Strat. Where the volume control goes on a Strat, there is a little 'horn' of wood between the humbucker route and the control cavity. The bridge bucker is also seems to be a hair more towards the bridge than on a Fender (brand) pickguard routed for a bridge bucker.

[AndyK]

After reading this entire long thread (a really great thread), I would just like to ad a point that hasn't been brought up. These production San Dimas Charvels are the current offering from the modern version of the Charvel/Jackson/Fender corporation. Period. Whether they are just like the old ones, better, much worse, isn't really the point. If you want a NEW Charvel that isn't made by the custom shop - this is it! Same goes for any new car you would buy today. Walk into a Honda dealer, and feel the crap metal the doors are made of, the light weight materials used, etc, etc. The cars from the 80's were much heavier, made of heavier steel, and just felt more durable (sound familiar?). But if you want a new car from Honda (made in Ohio instead of a city in Japan, BTW), this is what you get.

Someone mentioned that the So Cal body has Fender routing in it, surmising that it was a Fender body, painted like a Charvel, with a nicer shaped neck, and a Floyd. To me, this IS what Charvel was about! Take a Strat body, mod it, slap a better neck on, better pickups, a Floyd - the hotroded guitar! I think the new Charvel is doing that. I bet the Fender line guys are scared of the Charvel "crazies"! At least I would like to think that there is a "No Fender Guys Allowed" sign at the door to Charvel's paint booth!

Rock on Charvel/Fender/FMIC, whatever!

[85 San Dimas]

Hey 85 - good discussion... But what's with all the Kramer references? Are you a spy from the Kramer forum??? Was my Focus 2000 a real Kramer? It had a real Floyd on it and it was made in NJ based on the neck plate.

LOL. I made myself laugh.

Was it white? More at the bottom...

And I appreciate the feedback always...even if I don't like it. I'm hoping that my enthusiasm for the guitars comes through rather than my contempt for modern marketing practices (that's really, unfortunately, what this all is)

No, not a spy from the KF. I do own (and have owned) some Kramers and they're okay-especially the ones made pre- Baretta, and the "real" Nightswans were good. The neckthroughs from ESP were good. The classic Kramer argument is "made in the USA" (from parts unknown) and no one really "knows" anything, no bldg. standards, nothing-so EVERYTHING is legit by some twisted logic. I use Kramer for a great example of mass-produced parts made elsewhere and put together here. Like Robin, St. Blues, Texas Schecter, etc. (same basic parts). So my comparison. I prefer the way ESP does the lower line. Charvel and Kramer are not the same, and I don't want them to have too many similarities.

I just don't want that to happen w/Charvel. I don't want any confusion (that's why I hate the SD neckplates). I'd prefer the plate changed to "So-Cal by Charvel San Dimas" and leave the headstock logo as is....and then I'd be happy as hell. We as a community don't need SD and SDCS "near" copy plates in circulation even if they aren't totally identical. To the untrained eye they're close enough, and it's too easy to abuse. A quick look on the internet and its easy to miss the "Made In Usa" difference. People aren't going to take those plates off of 2K Charvels to sell. Damages the value of the guitar too much. I love the So-Cal for what it is. I love this site, and I love what these were/are.

Now that I've beaten the thread to death I'm gonna quit. LOL. I appreciate everyone who yelled at me, and the new white so cal is neat.
Glad they put the Zebras in or it wouldn't look right.

BTW I had a beak-neck Focus 3000 white/black (Jake E. Lee) with white headstock in 85. So, I'm with ya man. Thanks.

Greg (85 San Dimas)

[Grandturk]

Hey 85 - good discussion... But what's with all the Kramer references? Are you a spy from the Kramer forum??? Was my Focus 2000 a real Kramer? It had a real Floyd on it and it was made in NJ based on the neck plate.

LOL. I made myself laugh.

[tonemonster]

I agree that pick guards suck. they have no place on a guitar. they are fugly. unless its a seafoam green strat with a pearlized pickgaurd. thats the only exception. there I have spoken. let it be written.

[beachjammer]

So have we decided yet whether or not my Candy Tangerine So-Cal really is or isn't a "real" Charvel? How about my couple of recent custom shop Pointies, are those "real" Charvels or not?

I must say I love them all so Bionic, keep on building them and keep putting "Charvel Made In USA" logos on mine

+1

Rudy you have such a way with words! HA HA!

[roodyrocker]

So have we decided yet whether or not my Candy Tangerine So-Cal really is or isn't a "real" Charvel? How about my couple of recent custom shop Pointies, are those "real" Charvels or not?

I must say I love them all so Bionic, keep on building them and keep putting "Charvel Made In USA" logos on mine

[85 San Dimas]

What's "THE REAL THING" anyway? Possible candidates:

- The parts that Wayne Charvel bought from various supplies, sometimes painted and sold?

- The pre-pro's that Grover and Co. put together?

- The serialized strat heads?

- The San Dimas pointies?

- Pre-Fender? Post-Fender?

- Gold logo? Black logo? 3D logo?

I just think these are some righteous guitars, and I wouldn't have bought my San Dimas if it had any other name on the headstock.

IMO handmade in the custom shop.. back in Cali in the old days, by hand in Cali now..regardless of headstock,serials, etc. Anything else is splitting hairs and arguing legalisms. It would be like a Kramer argument..what consitutes a USA Kramer? Now, there is a long vehement thread where no one will be happy, and no answer can ever be arrived at.

Not on a mass-production line using parts from unknown sources either here, there, or anywhere. The best there is for that style instrument.

[85 San Dimas]

[quote=hippietim;1224651]Ok, since you brought Gibson in - they are a perfect example of the argument to your point

Actually I agree with your point re: Gibson. I believe they've made a helluva mess of their line. I don't even want to start with what they've done and no one needs 18 kinds of Les Pauls-it just cheapens everything.
"I want the Slash puked on the upper horn and crapped on the neck p/u guitar of the week LP Goldtop 1 of 400 signed by Slash's ex girlfriend on the melted pickguard model"
But I don't agree to using it for justification in the opposite direction. Charvel (FMIC, and originally, pre-IMC) is, or WAS until the So-Cals a "Custom Shop". Gibson is not a Custom Shop. They HAVE a custom shop. Fender has two, a Custom Shop and then Masterbuilt within the Custom Shop. I'm saying don't water down the CS by issuing production models using the CS name (the only name Charvel has). It forces a distinction between the two, and a thread like this.

Who is equating them with the real thing? I have yet to hear anyone from J/C say a production Charvel is as good as a CS Charvel.

well...

A. I believe these guitars are absolutely worthy of the Charvel name, and you are incorrect to suggest otherwise.

and Bionic (who admittedly is an FMIC employee) for two.

Also not trying to quote Grandturk out of context. I reread the posts he was responding to before quoting him. He's not saying they're equal. No one has, not even Bionic. That's not the point. The point I've asserted is that IMHO they are not worthy of this particular brand name (highly worthy as guitars with another name with a truer hertitage to that guitars assembly-like Kramer for instance).

Again, the thread is "what corners were cut?" so everyone agrees they aren't as good.

BTW glad you agree Mexican Strats are copies rather than the real thing.

Try it like this.......you have an old Star for sale around 1750 or so. One of the posters on this thread QC'd his So-Cal himself and dumped about 4 bills into it. At msrp that would put him around 1500 now...............which would anyone here buy? Not for gigging, not because you can bash it, or mod it, etc. but which one will you lay your money down for? The buyer will say "I'll take the real one"................and this is a question that can only be asked by:

Captain Obvious:ROTF: (that was a good one BTW)

FMIC has obviously found a way to build guitars (So-Cals)cheaper than the Japanese and damned near as cheap as the Koreans. They should be patriotic and share that tremendous knowledge with the rest of the US manufacturing base because they have an answer no one else does. "All made here ('cept Floyd) for the same list price as MIK."

Apparently they applied that breakthrough technology to the new Wolfgang if you take a good hard look at it. I'm sure that statement just doomed my other thread but I guess thats the way the old Floyd bounces.
I love Charvels, love them. I want them to succeed. This is just my commentary based on what I'm seeing and playing from the racks at the stores.

[Grandturk]

Who is equating them with the real thing? I have yet to hear anyone from J/C say a production Charvel is as good as a CS Charvel.

What's "THE REAL THING" anyway? Possible candidates:

- The parts that Wayne Charvel bought from various supplies, sometimes painted and sold?

- The pre-pro's that Grover and Co. put together?

- The serialized strat heads?

- The San Dimas pointies?

- Pre-Fender? Post-Fender?

- Gold logo? Black logo? 3D logo?

I just think these are some righteous guitars, and I wouldn't have bought my San Dimas if it had any other name on the headstock.

[hippietim]

I'm not that big of a purist to fundamentally disagree with that, but a Gibson is a Gibson and an Epi is an Epi and there is a difference. They're made in in different places by different people with different parts. Sounds familiar to this discussion doesn't it?

Ok, since you brought Gibson in - they are a perfect example of the argument to your point

Gibson makes a $300 Melody Maker and $8k Les Pauls. They make faded SGs and Robot Flying Vs. Some are mass produced and others are made by higher end builders in their historic/custom shop. How is that any different than a production Charvel vs. a Masterbuilt Custom Shop Charvel?

"IF" it isn't the decal that is creating the demand then change the decal. FMIC can't because fewer people will buy that guitar with a So-Cal "by Charvel" logo on the headstock unless they plan to sand it off and put on a Charvel decal. FMIC understands this and that headstock/decal combo is appealing to ego rather than intellect.

Staying with Gibson since you brought them up to make your point. Gibson is using their status as the builder of stuff like a Gibson Les Paul black beauty to sell $300 Melody Makers. The same logo goes on a $4000 VOS 59 as a faded Studio series.

Q: Is that decal selling product that would not sell in the same numbers badged any other way? Like Jackson, Fender, or Hondo?

Would a Mexican Strat sell less if it said "Esteban" instead?

Fender obviously believe the answer is "Yes", and that's the obvious marketing judgement. Otherwise these guitars would not exist. FMIC is trying to figure out what will be acceptable under the Charvel name and a line better be drawn somewhere.

Thank you Captain Obvious. Duh.

If Ferrari is sold and production moved to Japan then its still a Ferrari (IMC Charvel) and could then only argue emotionally "they're not like the old ones so they're not real boo-hoo", but if they just open a 2nd plant in Texas (So-Cals) then the real ones are built in Maranello and the Texas ones are copies. Again, I don't mind the So-Cals but I don't like them being equated in any way with the real thing.

Who is equating them with the real thing? I have yet to hear anyone from J/C say a production Charvel is as good as a CS Charvel.

I understand your point, I agree with your logic. I just come to a different conclusion using that logic.

Backatcha