What corners were cut on the production models

[Axewielder]

The fretwork on mine is fantastic! I take it that the fret ends are hand rolled judging from the feel. There are no burs and the whole neck and fretboard feels VERY smooth. Does that answer your question?

You've answered nothing. You are in the same boat as the rest of us. Just a bunch of apes with bones in our hands, looking up at the Monolith. The question is...what is inside of the Monolith?!?

[beachjammer]

OK I'm starting to get a bit ornery. We're on page 8, and no one has posted any specific facts regarding how the fretwork was done on these. Yeah yeah I've heard the terms "cost cutting" and "random" and whatnot, but what do we know for sure? We need a fly on the wall over there in Corona. Otherwise, we're going to be in the same boat as BC Rich players before too long (who know JACK about how their guitars are made).

The fretwork on mine is fantastic! I take it that the fret ends are hand rolled judging from the feel. There are no burs and the whole neck and fretboard feels VERY smooth. Does that answer your question?

[beachjammer]

If you think about it, these are going for in todays money close to what the originals went for way back in the day. Since they're only making 150 of each color (if I'm reading and understanding things right) then who's to say that in 15 years these will or will not be as sought after as the originals have been.... Plus ,I've looked for an original San Dimas for ALONG TIME! I have never been able to find one that I could afford that was in decent shape. I think that there's a few people here that have the $$$ to have the big nice collections and have been fortunate to find good deals. The majority of the rest of us are average Joes hoping to find one some day. The re-issues and now the production series has allowed someone like me to get a "new" guitar that is as close to original specs as it's gonna ever get. I'd still like to find an original but if I never do then I'm more than happy with my reissue and So-Cal.

[Axewielder]

OK I'm starting to get a bit ornery. We're on page 8, and no one has posted any specific facts regarding how the fretwork was done on these. Yeah yeah I've heard the terms "cost cutting" and "random" and whatnot, but what do we know for sure? We need a fly on the wall over there in Corona. Otherwise, we're going to be in the same boat as BC Rich players before too long (who know JACK about how their guitars are made).

[Newc]

Aren't we trying to compare the new Charvels to the originals, though? I mean the original Glendora-made that Warren and George were using back in 82/83.

We're also trying to compare the prices of those to the new ones, right?

And again, we're also assuming that just because those old ones were cut by hand on powered equipment (which is still not "hand-made" IMO), that's the "best" way to make them and all others bearing the name should be made the same way.

They were not CNCd at the time for 1 important reason:
The machines were way expensive.

Would Wayne or Grover have gone to CNC mass-production of rough body blanks if the machinery was more affordable? I say yes.

Do the machines do the final shaping and sanding and then sealing and then painting and building? No. Godin uses a lot of machines and templates and such and make very nice instruments. Why is it taboo for Charvel to do the same - simply because that's not the way Mike Shannon did it back in 82? That's utterly preposterous.

These are Charvels, not just because there's a Charvel logo on the head or because I say so. The specs determine the brand, not the history. Original USA Charvel specs - as I've read so often here from the experts like Tracy and Yogadork - were not carved in stone. You could have two guitars built one after the other with the same wood from the same pile by the same 5 people come out as two totally different-feeling guitars - different body contours, different neck profiles, different sound through the same amp and same player.

Maybe that's why these "aren't Charvels" - there' no traditional inconsistencies, they're more uniform, and they're better-built.

Ok, I get it now.

[85 San Dimas]

Sterling Ball recently mentioned on his blog that they have a couple of pallets of 25-year-old unshipped Music Man amps somewhere in the EB warehouse.

What possesses a businessman to keep 2 pallet loads of something deemed "worthless" long enough for it to become "valuable"? Not for last 15 years years, I understand that. It's the first 10 I can't figure:think:.

Based on some of the stuff the last few years I think the biggest pack-rats in the world are the guitar manufacturers.

[85 San Dimas]

We find what turns out to be a 1983 Jackson P-Bass, #J0034 at a Guitar Center, $500. Still has all of the original parts on it. A little road-worn, but definitely well worth the $500.

yeah, I remember you mentioning that. Smart kid.

[Grandturk]

Actually no - Leo had left Music Man to start G&L about 4 years before Ernie Ball acquired Music Man. Long story short - Music Man was started by Tom Walker and Forrest White - former Fender people. They approached Leo about investing in their company and doing some consulting work as his consulting contract (but not his non-compete) with CBS/Fender had expired. He wound up becoming a "silent partner" until his non-compete expired, then he was introduced as the 3rd partner in the company by the time they were ready to ship their products.

Cool info - thanks! I was just trying to be funny about The Man, and here you come, all Encyclopedia Wikitanica like a mo-fo.

[John C]

And then sold out again when he sold "Music Man" to The Other Man - Enrie Ball.

Actually no - Leo had left Music Man to start G&L about 4 years before Ernie Ball acquired Music Man. Long story short - Music Man was started by Tom Walker and Forrest White - former Fender people. They approached Leo about investing in their company and doing some consulting work as his consulting contract (but not his non-compete) with CBS/Fender had expired. He wound up becoming a "silent partner" until his non-compete expired, then he was introduced as the 3rd partner in the company by the time they were ready to ship their products.

Leo owned another company called CLF Research; behind the scenes it was CLF Research that designed and built the Music Man guitars and basses, sold them to Music Man, who in turn sold them to retailers. Leo had little to do with the amp line, which was built in Music Man's factory. Eventually Leo had a big falling-out with Walker and White and excercised a clause to sell his Music Man shares back to the company. CLF still built the instruments and sold them to Music Man, but Leo and George Fullerton were working on the G&L guitars. CLF built them both for about a year until the contract was broken (much like the Grover vs. Wayne part of the Charvel/Jackson story there are conflicting versions of why the contract was broken). Once they no longer made Music Mans Leo formally renamed CLF Research "G&L Guitars".

After that it took a couple of years for Music Man to go belly-up; Ernie Ball bought the name, designs and some assets from Chapter 7 proceedings; excpet for the 4-string Sting Ray Bass all the other EBMM instruments are post-Leo designs. Sterling Ball recently mentioned on his blog that they have a couple of pallets of 25-year-old unshipped Music Man amps somewhere in the EB warehouse.

[jet66]

So what I'm reading is that all in all the names don't really mean anything because the original builders aren't building any of them any more.

Nah, just playing around. The name is important to a degree, there is usually a reputation for/expectations of any given company, whether they changed hands or not.

So far I have not seen an older/earlier SD Jackson nor Charvel that was worth the asking price (according to some 'screw counters' I know) while I was in the market, and I have some specific wants. Plenty with Kahlers and V-trems, but I want a Floyd, maple board, 22 frets. I usually see plenty from the Ontario days, but usually claimed to be San Dimas (even with the Ontario neck plate!) and priced too high.

My kid got lucky, though: He's a budding bass player, has two really cheapies he's been learning on. Took him shopping for his Christmas gift, to maybe move up a notch or two from Rogue and SX. We find what turns out to be a 1983 Jackson P-Bass, #J0034 at a Guitar Center, $500. Still has all of the original parts on it. A little road-worn, but definitely well worth the $500.

[beachjammer]

I'll be the first to admit that I knocked the USA production series when they first came out. Especially as compared to my 2005 San Dimas Charvel. With that said though, the more I played them the more I not just liked them but really liked them! When my local dealer got in a Pegan Gold So-Cal I had to have it. I haven't regretted it for one second. I thought I'd hate the mini grovers and the knob but I actually like both now that I have it. I absolutely LOVE the guitar! I admit I bought it partially because it said "Charvel" on the headstock but that's really just what led me to play it to start with. I'd been thinking about getting a new Fender USA strat but when their prices shot up $300 then the So-Cal won out hands down because not only did it play as good but I personally liked the tone better and it also had "Charvel" on the headstock :O) Just my $0.02 worth...

[85 San Dimas]

So what I'm reading is that all in all the names don't really mean anything because the original builders aren't building any of them any more. OK.
So why pay a premium for the name?

Charvel belongs to FMIC, they do with it what they will. If your 1100 demands a strat head with a Charvel decal....

But I'm smart enough and old enough to know what's out there used for 11 bills............................and it doesn't wear Korean Floyds, doesn't have vague lineage (unless its a Kramer), and in Jacksons case it was made in the CS. hell put a warmoth neck on it, a 10 dollar decal and you'll have something better than a so-cal. When you're done sell the neck, put the pointy back on and you'll still have something good.

[85 San Dimas]

Never played a Fender Strat with an oiled neck and a compound fretboard. My Strat's got a 7.5" radius, which plays a hell of a lot different than a 12-15" compound radius.

Sure you have. you've played your So-Cal "Strat" with "Charvie" contours.

[Grandturk]

Anything made after early '65 isn't really a Fender anyways, since Leo had to be all greedy and sell out to The Man.

And then sold out again when he sold "Music Man" to The Other Man - Enrie Ball.

[jet66]

Anything made after early '65 isn't really a Fender anyways, since Leo had to be all greedy and sell out to The Man.