What corners were cut on the production models

[Carbuff]

I guess my complaint is that they aren't what they are, or at least what they seem to be. They would seem to have German made Floyds, and would seem to have been made in San Dimas (based upon the neckplate). Now we all know the history and why that isn't true, but surely people are getting confused by this.

Now the model series, those were what they were.

Yeah, they were made in Fort Worth as per the neckplate and they had The jt-6 trem or a single locking kahler with a locking nut (I never understood that) and basswood bodies. I love the model series guitars but they were not perfect either. They were probably just as expensive too, relatively speaking.

[Axewielder]

I think that they are what they are and I mean that in a good way.

I guess my complaint is that they aren't what they are, or at least what they seem to be. They would seem to have German made Floyds, and would seem to have been made in San Dimas (based upon the neckplate). Now we all know the history and why that isn't true, but surely people are getting confused by this.

Now the model series, those were what they were.

[Matt_B]

I was just trying to find a possible explanation for the hostility towards these guitars. I think that they are what they are and I mean that in a good way.

I think the reason is pretty simple. It's the same reason some folks don't like the import Jacksons - they're not "the real thing" and anything less than the real thing is devalues the name brand. Heck, I don't think the import Jacksons are anything special but they don't cost $2K either. Import Jacksons and Production series Charvels are still more Jackson or Charvel than anything else out there, save the custom shop versions.

[Matt_B]

No offense but did some of you guys freak out this much when the Fort Model series Charvels came out?

I've been a Charvel/Jackson player on and off since '85. When Charvels become imports (the Model series) I started buying Jacksons which were still Charvels in my eyes. At the time, I was selling guitars for a living and I sold tons of the Model series. People loved 'em but most folks weren't under the illusion that they were the same as the ol' custom Charvels. They (the Model series) were nice guitars, comparable to anything in their price point. I think the same can be said for the new Production series.

To me, the Custom Shop Charvels will always be the ones I love and probably the only ones I ever own but that doesn't diminish my appreciation and respect for the Production series.

[Carbuff]

Trust me when I say there is no fear from anyone who owns an original SD Charvel that these will affect their value.

You look at the history of the brand I feel other than the originals only the Model series deserved to wear the Charvel badge. Once the toothpaste series came out, they were obviously more Jackson inspired. Gone were the full size strat body and the simple shredder guitar. There was more emphasis on the neck through models, which IMHO is a Jackson. Charvels are 22 fret bolt on shredders, plain and simple.

In the 90s the SD series was released they had nothing in common with the originals. These were rebadged Jackson with Wilkinson trems. Now I have to give a nod to the GX bullseye, those were pretty awesome.

The new product is pretty much cookie cutter material, yes they look nice. They aren't in the same league. So I really don't think any collector or fan of the original SD's are worried about their guitars value. Personally the originals weren't built to be trophies for a collector; they are players’ guitars for guitar players.

I totally agree with all you've said. I was just trying to find a possible explanation for the hostility towards these guitars. I think that they are what they are and I mean that in a good way.

[Grandturk]

I hate Gibsons marketing strategy, but they aren't introducing '59 wannabes under their own name brand. The So-Cal is at the same price point as "Road Worn Mexi-Strats" and I can't believe FMIC makes less $$ on one than the other. Y'know, An OLP is not a MM EVH at a different price point. It's a lesser instrument, a look-alike. IMO the So-Cal is a akin to a modern Kramer Focus 3000. Looks like the real thing, built fairly well but ultimately a copy of a copy of a copy.

I don't buy your argument at all. Is a Fender American Strat at $1000 any less a "Fender" than a Custom Shop Strat at $5000, or $12000 or more?

Is a $1000 Gibson Flying V any less a "Gibson" than a $6000 Korina hoop-di-doo Flying V?

In my eyes, I don't think so - they're just at a different price point.

[Matt_B]

So, youre saying that he doesnt send the items from the picture? Or did the picture from your auction show a different pot?

Sorry, this is for Matt B.

I just found this one under the very same auction title as the other one.



Maybe charvel is hit or miss on which pot you get?

Yes, the auction I won had a picture with the split shaft and I received a solid shaft but as I said, I wanted the switch knob so it really didn't matter to me. I might need the pot someday but I have no immediate need for it.

[mudkicker]

Or is it just a collector mindset either nitpicking details or worrying that these models will devalue the originals. These are fairly basic guitars with color being the only option for the most part. I dont think anyone buys these expecting them to be an old charvel to collect or cherish forever. People buy these to play. I think theyre decent guitars for the price but I dont think they will hurt the value of the originals at all.

Trust me when I say there is no fear from anyone who owns an original SD Charvel that these will affect their value.

You look at the history of the brand I feel other than the originals only the Model series deserved to wear the Charvel badge. Once the toothpaste series came out, they were obviously more Jackson inspired. Gone were the full size strat body and the simple shredder guitar. There was more emphasis on the neck through models, which IMHO is a Jackson. Charvels are 22 fret bolt on shredders, plain and simple.

In the 90s the SD series was released they had nothing in common with the originals. These were rebadged Jackson with Wilkinson trems. Now I have to give a nod to the GX bullseye, those were pretty awesome.

The new product is pretty much cookie cutter material, yes they look nice. They aren't in the same league. So I really don't think any collector or fan of the original SD's are worried about their guitars value. Personally the originals weren't built to be trophies for a collector; they are players’ guitars for guitar players.

[mudkicker]

Ah, I see, I didnt get your motive at first. Darn Internet! I guess its a matter of accountability. On one side of the border who knows what goes on as far as workers and pay, and on the other side there are laws to help workers and such. You can build a nice shiny plant in Mexico but if the worker is only being paid jack, he might not be as "into" what hes doing all day. but youre right about the whole misconception that the corona plant is full of white Anglo "craftsmen" while the baja plant is full of "mexicans" Im sure there isnt much difference in the demographic of the workers in each plant. If you can legally put Made in USA on something it will sell for more just for that reason alone it seems. I guess a "mexi-charvel" would sell for $500 for basically the same guitar.

When I asked for clarification on where this guitar was made and not assembled, I was not concerned about the ethnicity of the builder. My point was if these were being cut, shaped and painted in Mexico and then bolted together in the US, I don't think that qualifies an Made in the USA and the price should reflect accordingly to where it's built. Bionic cleared that up. So no issue.

[85 San Dimas]

Or is it just a collector mindset either nitpicking details or worrying that these models will devalue the originals. These are fairly basic guitars with color being the only option for the most part. I dont think anyone buys these expecting them to be an old charvel to collect or cherish forever. People buy these to play. I think theyre decent guitars for the price but I dont think they will hurt the value of the originals at all.

I agree with your point. But based on that though they don't need to wear the Charvel name. They could have a Hondo decal and play out just the same.

[85 San Dimas]

Hi man,not meaning to offend you in any way. but what would you change in the current production charvels to make them more "true" to the Charvel name?
Is it the Floyd that is making all of the fuss?
Or do you think a true charvel supposed to be handmade like the old ones?

No man, not offending me at all, neither the floyd nor the collector stuff is what I'm going after here. I'm addressing both posts here so here comes the WALL of text:

To me (and many of us) the name "Charvel" means something and is is used to refer to production high quality or to perception of same unique to Charvels. That reputation was EARNED in the 70's and early 80's and later saved the brand. Charvel was nearly killed by marketing departments sticking that name on cost-cutter instruments to transfer a perception of quality to increase sales/profits. Anyone can build them them to "Charvel Specs" ,but what makes them "Charvels"? The decal? I don't want that to happen again.

I'm insulted by FMIC starting this process all over again by pasting the Charvel name, and the associated reputation of high quality (parts, build) onto an instrument which is clearly a cost cutter (which a "real Charvel" most certainly is not). I'm free not to buy of course, but whether I do or don't the brand will suffer just like last time.

To FMIC: if you're going to outsource this stuff then what reason would any of us have to not go back and just buy used IRC stuff instead? It's just as authentic "Charvel". Maybe more because that's all Charvel was at that time. They didn't have a real USA CS in place.
To BUYERS: If it's more important that it say "Charvel" on it than it is for it be built by Charvel then FMIC has something you'll love. The very existence of this guitar line is a bet that the decal is more important to you than the parts and the builders.

Some say, Well, the only difference(s) are that Charvel isn't cutting the wood, or painting, or providing Charvel labor for assembly (the "real builders" not just someone wearing a Charvel name badge). Maybe parts are "to spec" rather than authentic but somehow it will magically be worthy of the name Charvel. Now in my small world 2+1 doesn't equal 4. If it isn't the real parts, and it isn't the real builders, then how can it be the real thing? :think: Why does FMIC need to do this to Charvel? Answer: Because they have to. Because the other names are used up for now. Daddy's is full of Indonesian or Indian Jacksons. "Nah don't want none of them Jacksons, but if you'd make some cheaper Charvels I could sure sell a bunch of them". That's how it happens.

Either Charvel is a premium brand or it isn't. "Mexican Strat" and "Epiphone Lp Custom" are not premium brands yet this is the price point these guitars are built to.

Personally I would try to find a way to create a little additional manpower over at Charvel to cut the bodies and necks for these. Not the final sanding, the painting, the fretwork, etc. Make cutting these the educational OJT for the Charvel CS. Just cut and shape the wood, or use the blem pieces to create the lower line. The use your new assemblers to do finsih work. The money is in the assembly and finishing labor by whomever(unless everything but final assembly is being done elsewhere overseas & I'd bet it is).

I think my suggestion beats having a Chinese immigrant in a S.Korean factory to rub out bodies (not saying FMIC does this, just an example of the logic) and then FMIC acting like its USA (it's "legal" to say so) because it was assembled here. Then GC saying "Yeah buddy, that there's a real Charvel made here in the good 'ol USA for "only" $999.

IMO based on this marketing move (which we've seen before) in a few years Charvel will be in the dumper w/ every possible dime wrung from the name. Jacksons will be CS and then the process will start over again by sending the Jacksons downmarket (USA made! from parts unknown to Jackson specs) while Daddy's is full of Indonesian Charvels and we'll all be asking "where it went wrong".

Right here and right now is where it went wrong. I understand some will disagree.

[Carbuff]

I just bought that very item on eBay (just for the switch tip mind you) and the pot is a solid shaft CTS version.

I just found this one under the very same auction title as the other one.



Maybe charvel is hit or miss on which pot you get?

[Carbuff]

Hi man,not meaning to offend you in any way. but what would you change in the current production charvels to make them more "true" to the Charvel name?
Is it the Floyd that is making all of the fuss?
Or do you think a true charvel supposed to be handmade like the old ones?

Or is it just a collector mindset either nitpicking details or worrying that these models will devalue the originals. These are fairly basic guitars with color being the only option for the most part. I dont think anyone buys these expecting them to be an old charvel to collect or cherish forever. People buy these to play. I think theyre decent guitars for the price but I dont think they will hurt the value of the originals at all.

[Carbuff]

So, youre saying that he doesnt send the items from the picture? Or did the picture from your auction show a different pot?

Sorry, this is for Matt B.

[RandomFan]

Well then Bionic if FMIC is going to stick to this position I guess everyone over at the CS should be looking for new jobs because I don't see how FMIC can keep that facility open. Either the So-Cals are cost-cutters or the CS-guys are good-for-nothing and lazy (which I don't believe). Against these new So-Cals the CS products cost too much. FMIC would make more money if they just let the new guys build them all. Spend 3 times as long building it and it'll still only cost 1500 bucks. They're high quality legit Charvels according to FMIC. What's not to like? if they're the only builders it'll still be "the best FMIC has to offer" and Charvel will be in a position to grab a larger market share.

How do I know? Because it's the case you just made. FMIC can sell USA production Charvels for $999 list and they deserve the name Charvel.
I hate Gibsons marketing strategy, but they aren't introducing '59 wannabes under their own name brand. The So-Cal is at the same price point as "Road Worn Mexi-Strats" and I can't believe FMIC makes less $$ on one than the other. Y'know, An OLP is not a MM EVH at a different price point. It's a lesser instrument, a look-alike. IMO the So-Cal is a akin to a modern Kramer Focus 3000. Looks like the real thing, built fairly well but ultimately a copy of a copy of a copy.

In closing I'll say this to drive my point home:

Guard the treasures man because we're getting older, and if FMIC loses the plot again it may get lost for good this time. Thanks for your efforts always, I wish you well all the way around. I just disagree with you on this particular issue.

Hi man,not meaning to offend you in any way. but what would you change in the current production charvels to make them more "true" to the Charvel name?
Is it the Floyd that is making all of the fuss?
Or do you think a true charvel supposed to be handmade like the old ones?