Is Fender trying to put Jackson out of business?

[Sephiroth]

Jackson went to war?

Against ESP in the late 80's for using the exact same head shape and inlays as Jackson did, as well as others.

Remember Scott Ian's 1980's black ESP that was virtually indistinguishable from a Jackson soloist, or his white RAN copy of a Rhoads?

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a104/camo_khan222/IMG_2872.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/ESPenguin/not1.jpg

[1stSFG-A]

i have purchased my first and last jackson. last year, i bought a dk2t for $700 with case from musiciansfriend.com.

i really like it. it feels good. it looks good. i really, really like jacksons. i've definitely become a total fan boy, so to speak.

i have a great high paying and secure job. i could afford an arsenal of cs jacksons if i really wanted.

however, i am not a rockstar. i am not metallica. i am not megadeth. i am not fill-in-the-blank-with-your-favorite-big-time rock act. i don't even gig. i sit in my music room and jam out by myself. i don't need to spend $6,000 or whatever the ridiculous price is they're asking for a cs guitar to feel good playing in my room. while i have the money, i can think of 1,000,001 better ways to spend $6,000 or even $1,000 than parking it in the corner of my room to play with every now and again. i KNOW i'm going to get kicked in the teeth for saying this, but that attitude is probably what separates those with money from those without. (not to say that spending lots money on a jackson is necessarily stupid. )

nonetheless, i will spend $700 like i did. that's fine with me. i would definitely like more for my dollar from jackson, though.

at this point, jackson is a poor value. you're straight up paying for the name. there are plenty of guitar companies making quality guitars with quality woods with quality finishes out there for cheaper. if you want the jackson name, then you better be prepared to pay for it. to me, that seems like senseless brand whoring. of course, if i hadn't become a jackson brand whore myself, then i wouldn't be posting on this board.

the price increases are not upsetting just budget-line minded people. they are upsetting people all over the socioeconomic spectrum, if for not any other reason than we are paying substantially more for not that much more quality. for example, i seriously doubt that the quality has improved so much to warrant this year's price increases. as a matter of fact, i will bet money it has not.

i'm sure there are business factors to consider on jackson's side, but that's not my problem. that's jackson's. if it's too expensive to import now, then don't. build at home, for example. creative businessmen find creative ways to continue to offer their products/services at the same or reduced prices at the same level of quality, regardless of economic environment. that's what separates the men from the boys. regardless, it's poor business acumen to gouge your customers. an intelligently run business will deliver the same quality for the same price that customers expect, and the price actually ought to drop over time, not go up. i can understand increasing prices as quality increases, but quality usually increases with new business and manufacturing efficiencies. moreover, these efficiencies actually contribute to lower prices, not higher.

we're all upset because we are such huge fans of jackson. these price increases means owning one becomes a tougher and tougher decision. making your product a tough buying decision for customers is probably not good for the long term health of the company.

however, if prices ever come down to reasonable levels again, then i can guarantee i'll be the first stocking up!

i am definitely not adandoning jackson. i am just spending my money elsewhere for the time being. i know i'm not alone here. i guess you could say i'm playing the demand side of economics right now, waiting for the inevitable to happen over at jackson.

[VitaminG]

so the ONLY things that can justify price increases are improvements in product quality or features? What about increased oil prices, which directly affects transport costs which directly affect every link in the delivery process, whether that be the delivery of parts to the manfacturer, of the completed product along the distribution chain.

What about increasing rent? What about increasing wages? Inflation? Energy costs? Development or maintenance of business facilities? Legislative changes that might require significant expense to ensure compliance of the business? Research and development of new products, some of which may never reach the market to recoup costs, are paid for by products already in the market. Although you've already addressed these generic "business factors" as something Jackson has to deal with, without passing on any costs to you the consumer.

A loaf of bread may have cost 25c once upon a time, but not anymore. They didn't make any significant improvements in quality or add features to it. And yet, its price has gone up and up and up, for as long as it has been available to buy. Funny thing is, 25c for a loaf of bread probably seems expensive when you're only earning $50 a week.

I'm not upset about Jackson prices going up. The prices of everything goes up. As do our wages. And the expectation that we are entitled to get more for less.

[Hellbat]

As do our wages.

Unfortunately for most of us, not as fast as everything else does!

[Nightbat]

however, if prices ever come down to reasonable levels again, then i can guarantee i'll be the first stocking up! .

What do you call "reasonable" for what is basicly a luxury product?

[Torment Leaves Scars]

i have purchased my first and last jackson. last year, i bought a dk2t for $700 with case from musiciansfriend.com.

i really like it. it feels good. it looks good. i really, really like jacksons. i've definitely become a total fan boy, so to speak.

i have a great high paying and secure job. i could afford an arsenal of cs jacksons if i really wanted.

however, i am not a rockstar. i am not metallica. i am not megadeth. i am not fill-in-the-blank-with-your-favorite-big-time rock act. i don't even gig. i sit in my music room and jam out by myself. i don't need to spend $6,000 or whatever the ridiculous price is they're asking for a cs guitar to feel good playing in my room. while i have the money, i can think of 1,000,001 better ways to spend $6,000 or even $1,000 than parking it in the corner of my room to play with every now and again. i KNOW i'm going to get kicked in the teeth for saying this, but that attitude is probably what separates those with money from those without. (not to say that spending lots money on a jackson is necessarily stupid. )

nonetheless, i will spend $700 like i did. that's fine with me. i would definitely like more for my dollar from jackson, though.

at this point, jackson is a poor value. you're straight up paying for the name. there are plenty of guitar companies making quality guitars with quality woods with quality finishes out there for cheaper. if you want the jackson name, then you better be prepared to pay for it. to me, that seems like senseless brand whoring. of course, if i hadn't become a jackson brand whore myself, then i wouldn't be posting on this board.

the price increases are not upsetting just budget-line minded people. they are upsetting people all over the socioeconomic spectrum, if for not any other reason than we are paying substantially more for not that much more quality. for example, i seriously doubt that the quality has improved so much to warrant this year's price increases. as a matter of fact, i will bet money it has not.

i'm sure there are business factors to consider on jackson's side, but that's not my problem. that's jackson's. if it's too expensive to import now, then don't. build at home, for example. creative businessmen find creative ways to continue to offer their products/services at the same or reduced prices at the same level of quality, regardless of economic environment. that's what separates the men from the boys. regardless, it's poor business acumen to gouge your customers. an intelligently run business will deliver the same quality for the same price that customers expect, and the price actually ought to drop over time, not go up. i can understand increasing prices as quality increases, but quality usually increases with new business and manufacturing efficiencies. moreover, these efficiencies actually contribute to lower prices, not higher.

we're all upset because we are such huge fans of jackson. these price increases means owning one becomes a tougher and tougher decision. making your product a tough buying decision for customers is probably not good for the long term health of the company.

however, if prices ever come down to reasonable levels again, then i can guarantee i'll be the first stocking up!

i am definitely not adandoning jackson. i am just spending my money elsewhere for the time being. i know i'm not alone here. i guess you could say i'm playing the demand side of economics right now, waiting for the inevitable to happen over at jackson.

Everyone is complaining about pricing, but I don't see why. Now, I'll readily admit to being brand new to the Jackson "family," but after viewing Jackson's website, and just looking at what there is to offer, all avenues are covered, from a high entry-level on up. You have the JS Series starting at around $280 (non-tremolo, JS23 Dinky), and then you have the step up to a line which runs around $500, then the next at around $700, and so forth and so on.

Now, here's the thing. People are saying these guitars aren't getting any better. I'm going to have to readily agree to a certain extent, but at the same time, I'm going to have to disagree. I feel that what used to be the entry-level has now moved upscale, and while those prices may be increasing for a particular line which used to be entry-level, there is a new series sliding into that "abandoned" entry-level position, however, these new entry-level additions are being built to a higher standard than the previous entry-level models. Due to quality rising at the entry-level, it's going to affect the entire rest of the line of product, which will result in improved quality across the board, most likely coming at the beginning of the next model year, after a new line is introduced.

I'm not sure how the old JS series guitars were, but I can vouch for the quality of these new ones firsthand. There are no wobbly knobs, there are no issues with staying in tune, there is NO static from the electronics while plugged into an amp (can't say the same thing about my $2000+ Warmoth), etc. These NEW JS Series guitars ARE the real deal. Hell, my Warrior is even LOUDER than my Warmoth, a guitar in which I'd purposefully chosen the pickups on intentions of being the loudest things on this side of active pickups (DiMarzio Super Distortion, DiMarzio D-Activator X). This JS Series sounds beefy, aggressive, loud, and has the balls to back up its looks. There are A LOT of things in this $400 guitar that I iike better than on that of my Warmoth.

I'm not new to guitars. I know a good guitar and a bad guitar when I come across one and whatever entry-level guitars Jackson used to build obviously didn't make many people here happy, judging by a number of posts or threads I've read, but I can tell you and them firsthand that those days of Jackson's crappy entry-level guitars are over. No, they aren't USA Select models, but let me tell you again, they are the real deal, and at $400, there isn't a single guitar from another company on the planet that's going to touch them.

Since purchasing my JS, I've hit music stores with the intention of playing a $400 guitar from every brand I've come across, and NONE OF THEM, and I mean NONE OF THEM rival the quality and/or sound of the Jackson JS series. The only ones that come close are the Fender MIM guitars, and you can expect to pay at least $50-$100 more for one.

Now that that's outta my system, in relation to your comments about, "I'm not in Megadeth, Metallica, etc., so I don't need a $6000 guitar, etc.," I agree with you, but I'm the hypocrite here. I also don't feel that a $6000 guitar, or anything even remotely close to it is worth it if you aren't making a living off of music. There's no rhyme or reason to own a Custom Shop Jackson if all you're going to be doing is sitting in your bedroom, BUT, that's not why some people own them.

I'm one of these people who sit in my room and record, and play, yet I own a Warmoth guitar I've spent over $2000 on. Why? I did it because I like to treat myself for hard work. I had a job I hated, and damned if I wasn't going to buy myself something nice to make it all seem worth it to me. I felt that after having people launch over counters at me, cuss me out, threaten my person (and life), have a gun displayed on me, and getting f*cked every way til Tuesday by my boss, I owed myself something damned nice (I no longer work that job...).

For me, when I purchase something, it's an achievement for my hard work. When I buy something nice, it's a "thank you" to myself for my efforts. We all owe ourselves a pat on the back from time to time, or a reminder of a job well done. I have no reason to own 7 guitars, yet, I do. While some of them have been gifts, some of them have also been earned.

I recently traded in an Ibanez EX180, which was an inheritance from an ex-girlfriend 16 years ago. It was a pos, and I wanted to upgrade to something cheap, but something I'd enjoy. I stumbled upon my JS Warrior, and I bought it, HOWEVER, there's more to that story.

Just over 2 years ago, I quit that job I mentioned. I had a nervous breakdown. I truly believed that if I had worked there for another day, I would have died of a heart attack. One day, something told me not to return to that job, and I didn't. I just quit. To this day, I still believe that had I not quit that job, I would not be here today. After I quit that job, my wife said to me, "We will make it work, and I didn't say anything, but I was scared to death that one day I was going to come home and find you lying in a pool of blood with a gun next to you and a hole in your head." When your wife tells you something like that, you know you made the right decision.

Last year, January 2010, I got a new job. I had big plans, and everything came crashing down within a week. The wife and I went on a cruise prior to the start of my job, and we spent some money...A LOT of money. She got herself a very nice blue diamond, and she talked me into splurging for myself, which was something I really didn't want to do, but I didn't exactly kick and fight her not to. I got myself a real nice Tag Heuer "Formula One Series" watch. The next week, I proudly wore that watch to work, feeling great about myself and my new job. 5 days after starting (that following Friday), I got a call saying I was being let go. It turns out the entire training class was released. There I was with a brand new watch, which quickly became something I resented. I'm just now getting around to "earning" that watch, with the start of a new job this early this month.

With the start of this new job, the first one in over a year, I thought it would be nice to give myself a proverbial kick in the ass, and buy something to celebrate my newfound employment, and just kinda give me that extra "push" to achieve; something I could be proud of, and just start things off on the right foot. I can tell you it's a lot more satisfying to get a job and buy a little something for yourself than to say, "Yay, I got a job. Dear Bank of America, here's my entire first paycheck towards that credit card debt." Sure, while the credit cards will certainly get paid, it's just real nice to have gotten this new job, and have a small something to be proud of and work towards for myself. After making sacrifices for over 2 years, it's nice to FINALLY be able to buy something GUILT-FREE.

These days, I'm loving my life, especially since the beginning of this month. I have a job, I'm feeling confident, and I just feel positive and rejuvenated. We're climbing out of debt, and things are getting back on track.

Now that things are improving, I've decided I want a USA-made Jackson guitar. I don't need another $2000+ guitar, and I can't give you one good reason why I should even get one, but, in the future, I will get one. While it may not be today, next week, or even a year from now, I will get one because I feel like I deserve one. Like every other guitar I own, this one will mean something. Every time I pick it up to play it, I will think about about I got it, how hard I worked for it, how I achieved it, and how proud I am to have busted my ass for it, just like I do with all my guitars now, including my crappy B.C. Rich N.J. Series Mockingbird that I thought was the best thing in the world when I was 15.

Ya know, I talk way too much...

[RacerX]

J/K !

Since purchasing my JS, I've hit music stores with the intention of playing a $400 guitar from every brand I've come across, and NONE OF THEM, and I mean NONE OF THEM rival the quality and/or sound of the Jackson JS series.

That's good to hear, and a great endorsement. Remember, I did the original review on the JS30 "shape" series, and while it was cool to see those released, we were disappointed by the low end feel & features. So now I am glad to hear your positive reviews of the improved line (JS32)

"Yay, I got a job. Dear Bank of America, here's my entire first paycheck towards that credit card debt."

These days, I'm loving my life, especially since the beginning of this month. I have a job, I'm feeling confident, and I just feel positive and rejuvenated. We're climbing out of debt, and things are getting back on track.

That is great to hear, dude! Congrats!

I had a job I hated, and damned if I wasn't going to buy myself something nice to make it all seem worth it to me. I felt that after having people launch over counters at me, cuss me out, threaten my person (and life), have a gun displayed on me, and getting f*cked every way til Tuesday by my boss, I owed myself something damned nice (I no longer work that job...).

Just over 2 years ago, I quit that job I mentioned. I had a nervous breakdown. I truly believed that if I had worked there for another day, I would have died of a heart attack. One day, something told me not to return to that job, and I didn't.

Whoa! What job was this? Sounds like it deserves its own thread!

[Torment Leaves Scars]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2157[/ATTACH]


J/K !



That's good to hear, and a great endorsement. Remember, I did the original review on the JS30 "shape" series, and while it was cool to see those released, we were disappointed by the low end feel & features. So now I am glad to hear your positive reviews of the improved line (JS32)








That is great to hear, dude! Congrats!



Whoa! What job was this? Sounds like it deserves its own thread!

Yeah, I know, I sound like a total JS fanboy, and I guess, in a way, I am. I also two much more expensive guitars than the JS, being my Fender Telecaster Plus (Made in USA), and my Warmoth, and they're great instruments, and it's honestly very difficult for me to admit that this $400, entry-level Jackson is nearly every bit as good as both of them. In some ways, my JS is my favorite out of the entire bunch.

The only complaints I have about the JS are those involving the tremolo. With total tremolo abuse, don't expect to stay in tune, and the other is regarding the body routing of the tremolo. You really can't pull up on the bar to high, because the cavity under the tuning screws isn't deep enough. You can get a little bit of "lift," but not a whole lot. I'm already thinking about upgrading to a real Floyd and Floyd locking nut.

I do remember your review on the old JS guitars, but honestly, I think these new ones will redeem any confidence you had prior to your experience with them. You owe it to yourself to revisit the JS series, and give them another shot. You may just find yourself leaving the music store with one, but knowing my usual string of bad luck, you'd probably find yourself picking one up, and it too, would be an absolute pile. All I can say is that the three I've played were nice (the Kelly, my cousin's RR, and my Warrior) instruments, especially for $400. IMO, these guitars could sell for $500-$600 and still be bargains.

As for the job, I won't mention the name of the company, but I'll just say it was an auto parts company. What I explained to you is what happens when you don't have a $15 Thrush Turbo muffler in stock for some redneck's smelly, rusty, 1978 Chevy, or when one of your coworkers sells somebody the wrong parts.

[Sephiroth]

so the ONLY things that can justify price increases are improvements in product quality or features? What about increased oil prices, which directly affects transport costs which directly affect every link in the delivery process, whether that be the delivery of parts to the manfacturer, of the completed product along the distribution chain.

What about increasing rent? What about increasing wages? Inflation? Energy costs? Development or maintenance of business facilities? Legislative changes that might require significant expense to ensure compliance of the business? Research and development of new products, some of which may never reach the market to recoup costs, are paid for by products already in the market. Although you've already addressed these generic "business factors" as something Jackson has to deal with, without passing on any costs to you the consumer.

A loaf of bread may have cost 25c once upon a time, but not anymore. They didn't make any significant improvements in quality or add features to it. And yet, its price has gone up and up and up, for as long as it has been available to buy. Funny thing is, 25c for a loaf of bread probably seems expensive when you're only earning $50 a week.

I'm not upset about Jackson prices going up. The prices of everything goes up. As do our wages. And the expectation that we are entitled to get more for less.

I doubt oil prices are to blame for the cost of a DK2 or RR3 doubling in the past ten years. If anything, the laws of economies of scale would argue that they should be getting cheaper to produce.

And I can handle the current prices on the high-end imports (assuming they don't get pushed higher) as long as Jacksons can pick up more features to make them competitive. The price/feature for the lower-end imports is just fine as is, so there's nothing to complain about, but for a $1000+ guitar with prices that push into American-made guitar prices, they need more.

I want to see Jackson compete, and the simple truth is they're not competing at all.

[Sinistas]

I'm fine with Jackson's prices going up rather than moving production to China like ESP has done with a lot of the LTD line.

[Torment Leaves Scars]

I'm fine with Jackson's prices going up rather than moving production to China like ESP has done with a lot of the LTD line.

Are you fine with production in India, because that's where the JS production has landed...

[markD]

i believe that is where the JS line was always made. original the X series was made in india too. i played an indian RX10D and it was total garbage, as was a JX10 and the DX10D.....

now before you go off again on great the new JS guitars are, let me say that those indian X series guitars, i believe, were from 2001-2002....

[Torment Leaves Scars]

i believe that is where the JS line was always made. original the X series was made in india too. i played an indian RX10D and it was total garbage, as was a JX10 and the DX10D.....

now before you go off again on great the new JS guitars are, let me say that those indian X series guitars, i believe, were from 2001-2002....

You make it sound as if I think the JS is the greatest guitar ever built. That's not the case. There are many guitars out there that are better than a JS series Jackson guitar, but not for their price. Considering I own one, I'm in a qualified to make an assessment of the instrument. All I'm saying is that these guitars aren't the same piles of crap that Jackson used to deal out at $200; nothing more, nothing less.

Also keep in mind that a different company are building the JS series than before. I believe Samick was doing all of Jackson's foreign product. I'm pretty sure their entry-level stuff has since been relegated to Harmony Music, which IMO, isn't a good thing, but apparently, along with the change came positive things. Personally, I just don't think highly of Harmony's instruments, especially after remembering seeing them for sale at box stores like the now-defunct "Service Merchandise," which was around back in the 80s and 90s.

Time will tell how good these new JS instruments are, but from a personal experience, I don't have any real complaints about them, other than the "licensed by Floyd" tremolo, shallow tremolo cavity, and the worse than average setup that it was blessed with from the factory.

[Animus]

i have purchased my first and last jackson. last year, i bought a dk2t for $700 with case from musiciansfriend.com.

i really like it. it feels good. it looks good. i really, really like jacksons. i've definitely become a total fan boy, so to speak.

i have a great high paying and secure job. i could afford an arsenal of cs jacksons if i really wanted.

however, i am not a rockstar. i am not metallica. i am not megadeth. i am not fill-in-the-blank-with-your-favorite-big-time rock act. i don't even gig. i sit in my music room and jam out by myself. i don't need to spend $6,000 or whatever the ridiculous price is they're asking for a cs guitar to feel good playing in my room. while i have the money, i can think of 1,000,001 better ways to spend $6,000 or even $1,000 than parking it in the corner of my room to play with every now and again. i KNOW i'm going to get kicked in the teeth for saying this, but that attitude is probably what separates those with money from those without. (not to say that spending lots money on a jackson is necessarily stupid. )

nonetheless, i will spend $700 like i did. that's fine with me. i would definitely like more for my dollar from jackson, though.

at this point, jackson is a poor value. you're straight up paying for the name. there are plenty of guitar companies making quality guitars with quality woods with quality finishes out there for cheaper. if you want the jackson name, then you better be prepared to pay for it. to me, that seems like senseless brand whoring. of course, if i hadn't become a jackson brand whore myself, then i wouldn't be posting on this board.

the price increases are not upsetting just budget-line minded people. they are upsetting people all over the socioeconomic spectrum, if for not any other reason than we are paying substantially more for not that much more quality. for example, i seriously doubt that the quality has improved so much to warrant this year's price increases. as a matter of fact, i will bet money it has not.

i'm sure there are business factors to consider on jackson's side, but that's not my problem. that's jackson's. if it's too expensive to import now, then don't. build at home, for example. creative businessmen find creative ways to continue to offer their products/services at the same or reduced prices at the same level of quality, regardless of economic environment. that's what separates the men from the boys. regardless, it's poor business acumen to gouge your customers. an intelligently run business will deliver the same quality for the same price that customers expect, and the price actually ought to drop over time, not go up. i can understand increasing prices as quality increases, but quality usually increases with new business and manufacturing efficiencies. moreover, these efficiencies actually contribute to lower prices, not higher.

we're all upset because we are such huge fans of jackson. these price increases means owning one becomes a tougher and tougher decision. making your product a tough buying decision for customers is probably not good for the long term health of the company.

however, if prices ever come down to reasonable levels again, then i can guarantee i'll be the first stocking up!

i am definitely not adandoning jackson. i am just spending my money elsewhere for the time being. i know i'm not alone here. i guess you could say i'm playing the demand side of economics right now, waiting for the inevitable to happen over at jackson.

I disagree. It's all relative. Compare Jackson to Paul Reed Smith. PRSi are so overpriced and under-featured it's not funny. With PRS you are paying a big premium just for the name, and another premium for those gimmicky "birds" and then a crazy premium just for that flame/quilt top. My alder Sl2h trem sounds better, plays better and has more sustain than my mahogany PRS Singlecut trem which cost a grand more..

[VitaminG]

I doubt oil prices are to blame for the cost of a DK2 or RR3 doubling in the past ten years. If anything, the laws of economies of scale would argue that they should be getting cheaper to produce.

I'm sure higher oil prices aren't SOLELY responsible, but it would certainly have an impact. It costs more to transport materials, and it also costs more to transport the completed product. Every step in the supply chain is impacted. Since the DK2 & RR3 are made in Japan, that means shipping them across the globe to the US for distribution. Then they have to be shipped to sellers all over the planet. All the transport companies have increased their prices significantly in the last 10 years. I remember folks here bitching about ebay sellers asking $50 to ship a guitar across the US.

Combine that with a weakened US dollar, and the cost of import a guitar from Japan jumps.

Not to mention that in the last ten years, the entire Pro line has had pickup & hardware upgrades, so the base cost of the instrument has gone up, other factors aside.

Plus it just a fact that everything gets more expensive due to increases in the cost of living. Your workforce demands more money so they can buy the things that they need (which are getting more expensive), you have to recoup that increased expense via the product you're selling.

Your argument that Jackson is suffering in the market by not including enough blingy features to compete with Chinese & Indonesia made guitars at the same price point from ESP, Schecter, et al, reduces the benefits of economy of scale. If they aren't selling enough, they aren't building enough to realise those benefits.