Who's a knock off of who? Or. Who made who?

[holycross1]

I have read alot of threads on the new Charvel lineup. And the new Jackson series.
The responces have been mixed with a heavy leaning towards the possitive.

But one theme I see repeated by some members have me puzzled as to if they really know J/C that well.
Let me clarify.
I have been a J/C devotee since the 80's. I have been a dealer for J/C many times over those years. I have been to the NAMM shows to see what there was to see.
Many shapes and sizes and the like have been graced by the J/C logo's over the years.
When I think of some of those that AKAI didn't really promote or market enough to make catch. There are a few.
Guitars that would be a staple in the line up today, had AKAI pulled there heads out of their ass on and let ride and create more variations. They had so many models that naver made it to their own catalogs its easy to see how they failed themselves and the players that have bonded with the brand.
During the time that they were making themselves a second fiddle image for the products. ESP was already imitating J/C designs and signing artist to endorsments while building replicas and knock offs of their J/C guitars.
Now here we are in 2011.
And I read how J/C has copied, ripped off, mimmicked, ESP/LTD's.
When Fender came out with a floy loaded strat with a humbucker and 2 single coils, nobody said they were ripping off ESP traditional series guitars.
Do you know why?
Because Fender was the original. They originated the designs. When you think "traditional", Strats and tele's and Pauls and SG's come to mind. Not ESP/LTD
Jackson/Charvel got the whole Super Strat market going. And all the cool new pointy V's and Kelly's, headstocks and hybrid designs like the 750XL and Fusion etc etc are courtesy of J/C.
J/C was inspired by traditional designs and the idea that they could be better then any run of the mill guitar.
ESP has simply made copies of an original concept. They did not invent neck thru construction. Les Paul did technically. They did not create the pointy headstock. Randy and Grover Jackson did together.
ESP did not think of the rcessed tremolo. Steve Via did while hot rodding a Charvel that Frank Zappa gave him.
ESP did not innovate the art of inlay and binding. You can thank the great Jazz guitar builders of the early 1930's and up.
ESP did not innovate the archtop super strat. J/C and Fender both had offerings in the 80's while J/C reined supreme among working proffessionals at the time.
ESP did create the bought and payed for string of endorcers. Jackson/Charvel did not do that. They gave guitars to some endorcers but did not pay them money to play their guitars. The endorcers "chose" to play them because they were exactly what they wanted in a pro instrument. ESP endorcers handed them their Jackson's and Charvels and said, Get as close as legally possible and put my name on it with a kick back for each one sold.
So it hurts my eyes to see a post or thread that would make it look as if J/C is copying or making a knock off of an ESP. And to see that statement made by J/C devotee's?
The only thing I see is J/C coming a little late to their own party. Kinda.
All these companies that should be paying homage to a legacy of rule changing design. That others have profited from marketing themselves as something they are not, "Original" is AKAI and JCMI and FMIC's fault.
JCMI/FMIC however are correcting that mistake as I see it.
So J/C cannot make a knock off ESP/LTD. They originated the very theme and scope of ESP's catalog. Gibson and Fender Have also. But the lions share of it all goes to Jackson/Charvel.
I don't really count Schecter as being like ESP. Since they at least started out working with Wayne and Grover on special orders and back orders. They make a pretty good 750Xl copy. Not great, but good. And their Gibsonesque models are just original enough to spot right away in most cases.
Schecter just did something similar to what J/C should have done a while ago.
Now it is up to them and us to establish the cold hard FACT that these are the coveted "Original" guitars that give every guitar they make, a creatively vicious heart, that craves the very blood sweat and tears these guitars can inspire every player to give.
After all. We choose our guitars and our betters chose them. While some just want to get payed to settle for copy.
We all know a copy is never better then the original.
So please think about it before you go accusing J/C of creating knock offs of ESP/LTD and get some balls and roar when you see Jackson taking back ground from what has always been a counterfit operation.

I close with a story that was relayed on this forum years ago.

At a NAMM show some "kids" were looking at a Custom Shop Charvel with a Bulls eye Graphic.
They remarked to one another that, Cahrvel was so desperate that they copied the graphic from Zack Wild's Gibson Les Paul.
A jcfonline member overheard there blasphomous comments and boldly proceeded to tell them how Charvel was the original Bulls Eye. And were the innovators of the graphics that so many used on their instruments to this day.
Those "kids" obviously had no sense of rich guitar history. They only knew what they saw on Mtv and Magazines.
They were made better by that encounter I beleive, because they were relieved of the ignorence that blinded them.

The point? Be bold to set the record straight. Stand your ground on "who" is the original. And why the original is always the best. And why the originals are respected above a knock off brand.

Peace.

[Sephiroth]

ESP like EVERY Japanese maker in the 70's and 80's just ripped off American guitars (even Ibanez did it until Gibson sued them). That was their whole forte back then with knocking off American guitars and selling them at a fraction of the price in the local Japanese market. Then they begun selling them outside of Japan where they attracted the likes (and wrath) of companies like Fender and Gibson. No sooner than Jackson begun using the wedge head shape did ESP jump on it and begin using it too. And no sooner than Washburn begun using the reverse-wedge design did ESP jump on that and have since then all but usurped it from Washburn as their signature head design.


Even to this day, ESP STILL knocks off signature features of guitars like Jacksons, Fenders, and Gibsons down to the headstock shapes in Japan (often sold through one of their Asia-only brands).

There will ALWAYS be some copying. Where would the auto industry be if only the first car producer was allowed to use 4 wheels and a steering wheel and everyone else had to come up with their owm combinations? BUT ESP has consistently been the worst and most blatant at it, even going so far as to pay living artists to put their names on sig models that are knock-offs of fallen and highly-respected artists like Les Paul, Robbin King Crosby, and of course Randy Rhoads. That is an asshole move that is indefensible. To me that's rule #1 when it comes to rivals being civilized and respectful.


Personally I don't know how and why so many people here praise ESP after it's asshole moves against Randy Rhoads which I see as an attack on him as a person when they knocked off his guitar. I will give ESP credit for one thing: in this industry they're KINGS of marketing and make a lot of money to get people to play knock-offs of Gibsons and Jacksons that they think are good (FUN FACT: WITH EMG'S YOU'RE HEARING THE EMG'S MORE THAN YOU'RE HEARING THE ACTUAL GUITAR'S TONAL QUALITIES THEMSELVES and having actives is hardly condusive to a good-quality guitar. It's like make-up on an ugly whore good for masking what lies underneath).


And of course kids don't know shit. That's why they're still kids. They probably think ESP's are the best because of the EMG's and are sold on artists playing them while ignoring the fact that professional artists almost never play ESP's professionally until ESP pays them to, and even then many like James Hetfield keep on recording and even sneaking in other guitars into live sets (like his maltese cross LP).

[holycross1]

Amen brother. Can we get any more witness?

[toejam]

ESP seems to use a lot of gawdy abalone binding and inlays, same for Schecter.
J/C jumped on that bandwagon now...

[MetalHeadMat]

BUT ESP has consistently been the worst and most blatant at it, even going so far as to pay living artists to put their names on sig models that are knock-offs of fallen and highly-respected artists like Les Paul, Robbin King Crosby, and of course Randy Rhoads. That is an asshole move that is indefensible. To me that's rule #1 when it comes to rivals being civilized and respectful.

This is kind of unfair. Because Les Paul designed the SG, and clearly the Les Paul, doesn't mean he should be the only one to use them. It's a shape made by a designer, in this case Les Paul.

While we're at it, J/C copied the Warrior from the Stealth. Now if only they copied the Ironbird and made a production pointy star

ESP seems to use a lot of gawdy abalone binding and inlays, same for Schecter.

That's because they're owned by the same parent company, they even used the same 3x3 head stock for a while.

Fun fact, Daisy Rock is also owned by this parent company, and you can tell how sparkley they are

[Nightbat]

Wall of text too heavy at this hour, didn't read al but got the jest of it

basically:

IThe only thing I see is J/C coming a little late to their own party. Kinda.

this

[church2224]

holycross1 pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I do have some defense for ESP. I do think they make a quality instrument and the Standard Series are very consistent production guitars, then again most companies are, and I like the M-IIs and Horizons a lot. I might be getting an M-II Maple soon, as from the ones I play they do sound and play great. But I do hate the fact every kid thinks they are the best and Jackson sucks because all these more mainstream metal bands play ESP and not Jackson. ibanez, ESP and Jackson have always been my favorite three companies, in addition to PRS, Caparison and G&L, but not because someone else plays them, but because I like the way they feel to me.

[Sephiroth]

ESP seems to use a lot of gawdy abalone binding and inlays, same for Schecter.
J/C jumped on that bandwagon now...

In case you're not aware, ESP and Schecter are both owned by the same guy

[Accept2]

ESP make nice guitars and LTD seem to be great guitars for the money, but they also seem really trendy, like they are being aimed at 15 year olds like the old Kramers. I always wonder if ESP is going to end up like the Kramers they used to make. So popular that one day they all become worthless because they flooded the market..............

[Newc]

This is kind of unfair. Because Les Paul designed the SG, and clearly the Les Paul, doesn't mean he should be the only one to use them. It's a shape made by a designer, in this case Les Paul.

As I understand it, Les didn't have any input on the SG design, that was all Gibson. They just wanted Les's name on it for the promotion.

I'm also not entirely convinced he designed the actual Les Paul body shape, but rather it was a solid-body version (and somewhat scaled down) of their Spanish Cutaway hollowbody.

And for a guy who invented the neckthrough concept by bolting his Epi neck onto a railroad tie, it confuses me as to why Gibson went with set-neck instead of neckthrough.

While we're at it, J/C copied the Warrior from the Stealth. Now if only they copied the Ironbird and made a production pointy star

This is debatable IMO. Yes, it does resemble the Stealth in overall silhouette, but the designer, Mikey Wright, did point out that the Warrior body is 4 Jackson headstocks:



Now, as to whether he was inspired by the Stealth, only he can say. However, if this is the only Jackson model that was taken from another brand, I think that's an excellent track record compared to every other manufacturer.

And no, I do not consider the KV to be a Gibson V knockoff. Refinement, yes, copy, no.

Same with the Kelly vs Explorer.

Now, Jackson did, obviously, make quite a few models that were Gibson's design: the JJ1, the Firebird Pro, the Y2KV.

[Nightbat]

Instead of abalone, purfling and whatever Jackson got famous by using loud and tacky finishes
I'll bet the Gibson and fender dudes at that time had about as much disdain for that as the J/C fans for the faux-classy stuff of ESP/Schecter today

Face it peeps, you're getting old

[6string40]

And while we're at it...Gibson's version of EDS???

[church2224]

ESP make nice guitars and LTD seem to be great guitars for the money, but they also seem really trendy, like they are being aimed at 15 year olds like the old Kramers. I always wonder if ESP is going to end up like the Kramers they used to make. So popular that one day they all become worthless because they flooded the market..............

I always think that is more the LTD line than anything. The Standard Series are more or less their take on Super Strats, LPs, Vs, ect.

Only gripe I have with their guitars is the fact that they do not offer a lot of their Standard Series in the US, they have a lot of great guitars sold here but no where near as many as some other countries. Also some more finish colors would be nice...

Jackson has the Upper Hand though with the finish choices the USA models have as well, plus Ebony Board and Bindings on all models.

[Ward]

the designer, Mikey Wright, did point out that the Warrior body is 4 Jackson headstocks:

That is a really cool picture. I never knew that was the origin of the warrior design, and never would have noticed it.

[Sephiroth]

And while we're at it...Gibson's version of EDS???

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2524[/ATTACH]

GIbson's version claims to signify flood waters after the 2010 Nashville floods. Personally I think it looks like ass on a LP. It works so much better on pointy guitars for some reason. But hey also this year Gibson released a Randy Rhoads LP, so it's not hard to see who Gibson's keeping in it's sights lately.......

And for a guy who invented the neckthrough concept by bolting his Epi neck onto a railroad tie, it confuses me as to why Gibson went with set-neck instead of neckthrough.



This is debatable IMO. Yes, it does resemble the Stealth in overall silhouette, but the designer, Mikey Wright, did point out that the Warrior body is 4 Jackson headstocks:



Now, as to whether he was inspired by the Stealth, only he can say. However, if this is the only Jackson model that was taken from another brand, I think that's an excellent track record compared to every other manufacturer.

Maybe setting in necks was just tradition carried over for how necks were set in on acoustics and semi-hollows, which surely would have been something perfectly natural for Gibson when considering what it made before LP's. At the least it probably took a few Gibson luthiers some re-wiring of the brain to wrap their minds around the idea of building the body around the neck for neck-through after doing set-necks for so long.


And that's a cool fact about the Warrior. I cannot un-see 4 Jackson wedge heads now.