Does Jackson use CNC machine?

[~K~]

There are different functions of machining being discussed here. This is what I do for a living. I work in semi conductor in engineering. I do everything from manual machining,cnc machining to programing and design in solidworks.

A duplicator or tracer is just that. It rolls over a master driving several heads at once to duplicate the pattern the tracer is rolling over.

There are machines with tips on them the will touch point over the master and read those points creating a vector pointed model. In other words it measures my a probe or a laser and turns those positions into measurements

Then there are CAM driven programs that are solid models. The operator will draw a solid model or take a solid model in the CAD system and create a machining program to cut the model.

Pin routers are great & reliable, but they involve a LOT of hand-work. I guess in the custom shop it might make sense, but I'd still be surprised if most of the parts aren't at least roughed in by CNC and then finished off on the pin routers and other hand techniques.

Mike visits the shop on occassion and know exactly what tooling they have. He also builds guitars as does Sully. I've also been in the shop so I can attect to the fact that he knows what he's talking about.

Nowadays re-tooling and adjusting the programming for CNC machines involves just a few mouse clicks, etc.

This is simply not a completely true statement. When you retool a machine you literally hand change tools unless the machine is robotic. I don't think I'd ever seen a robotic CNC in FMIC. I have seen them in places like Raytheon.Changing programs is not simply just mouse clicks. It can involve all different things depending on whats being done or the problems you are having with the current program. In fact in a lot of instances, after a program is sent it is generally modified at the machine unless the operater has a CAM package at the production point.

Even cooler though are the newest generation of 3D printers- a few more thresholds to pass up, and it'll be like Star Trek- tell the computer what you want, and it'll poop out an exact replicant of your loved-but-lost-first-RR in a few seconds!

This is also one of my responsibilities currently. We use a Dimension 3d printer. This technology is cool but no where near being at the level of production stuff. They are currently working on making it better but at this moment is more of an R&D type thing. Where these machines really stand out is being able to go from idea to model to part to using the part to make a mold using the printed model. Eventually you will see these machine laying metal.


FWIW I've been in this trade for over 30 years as a tool maker, R&D Machinist, programmer and designer. A lot of people assume that with the computer driven technology that it's just a matter of feeding a print into a computer and out comes a finished part. It takes a lot of skillset to do these jobs, something I have great admiration for in anyone that does or can do it and the Jackson custom shop is one that I truly admire after seeing the process.

[xenophobe]

Never seen one like that, and it doesn't make sense to me. What would be the point of a Computer Number Controlled machine that didn't operate on the numbers from the computer? It's kinda the whole point of the CNC machines.
Admittedly, I don't know everything that's out there- and my interest has been piqued; I've been somewhat involved in the development and implementation of quite a bit of this technology in the sign industry for the last 20 years, and this is the first I've heard of a CNC operating from a template reference like that.

It's a CNC duplicator that uses 3D delrin templates for basic shape information and computer scripting for intricate work. So, when he's making an AK stock, he can pick the template he is using and the specific script to mill the internals, so even quicker than having two dozen programs, he has a script for each variant's attachment dimensions and just switches templates to make a different variation.

Do you have any pictures and/or links to satisfy my curiosity?

No, but you can contact Matt at Ironwood Designs and ask him about it. This machine replaced his manual replicators, but I've only seen it once... so I might be confused on what he's actually using. I do know it was an automated cnc duplicator that used delrin templates, and I remember him explaining how he would have to align new templates to zero so the programs would inlet correctly.

http://ironwooddesigns.com

[bratfink]

Eventually you will see these machine laying metal.

Too late, we are already doing it

SLS machines have a lazer sintering capability that turns a powered form of metal into a solid. Unfortunately, the technology is still bollocks, and the formed metal cannot be trusted as structural (kinda like a real early cast from the 1700's!), but it looks pretty.

There is a lot of current research to improve this technique.

We use a combination of SLA, FDM and SLS in our testing facility (I could tell you but I'd have to kill you). The best material by far for me is one from 3D Systems called Accura Xtreme, however, since these are cured by UV light they eventually change colour and even change dimensionally over time.

[Brian]

Considering the wait times, I thought they used the whittle method for the bodies. Sorry, I couldn't stop myself from saying it.

You're not alone .

[len]

This is the making of some Carvin's CNC style,pretty interesting video.

[SignoftheDragon]

Alright- a little research and clarification have cleared up some of my confusion. Valid points all around, and I of course meant no disrespect to Mr. Learn and his outstanding work and experience- just a few points of discussion, several of which went right along with his statements. I'll also defer in some ways (as I pointed out in my earlier post- I don't know everything) to those whose experience is longer or broader in scope than mine. I've worked for 20 years on CNC machines for use in the sign industry- admittedly a very narrow focus, but with points that have a lot in common with guitar building; at least in the early stages of milling the parts.

My points are these:

1) the templates shown hanging on the wall in the photo are definitely those used for a pin router and/or other hand-machining techniques. I've done enough time at a pin router to know those when I see them. They were most likely made on a CNC machine for small-batch duplication: something like you would see in the custom shop where much of the production work is done by (comparatively) expensive skilled labor. I do not know how current the photo is, but I would be surprised if anything other than custom-shop orders were manufactured using them- if they are still in use.

2) The type of CNC duplicator described by Xenophobe is a bit of a revalation to me- and I still don't quite get the advantages of using the delrin template each time you want to mill a particular part, as opposed to a single 3D scan/model of each part that could be categorized and stored for future recall and milling on demand. Not arguing about whether or not it exists, just curious as to why it would be done that way. It obviously works for them at Ironwood- but as I stated above- those templates on the wall would not be the type to use for that.

3) I'll point you to the above video for support of my re-tooling argument- Auto tool changers are commonplace on modern CNC routers. Of the 40+ that I've built and installed over the 15 years I worked in that capacity, (the last one was 4 years ago or so) 8 of the last 9 of them were installed with tool changers included.

4) the 3D printer issue: see Bratfink's statement above. I know we're not anywhere near production-level capability on these when it comes to guitars- I was just pointing out that it is on the way. It'll be awhile, hence the ultra-futuristic Star Trek reference.

[Devotee]

Those photos were taken directly from the Jackson website.

[xenophobe]

2) The type of CNC duplicator described by Xenophobe is a bit of a revalation to me- and I still don't quite get the advantages of using the delrin template each time you want to mill a particular part, as opposed to a single 3D scan/model of each part that could be categorized and stored for future recall and milling on demand. Not arguing about whether or not it exists, just curious as to why it would be done that way. It obviously works for them at Ironwood- but as I stated above- those templates on the wall would not be the type to use for that.

It's just a computer controlled version of a manual duplicator... All you do is insert wood, the unit clamps it and finishes it without manual guidance as you would need to use with a manual duplicator. His manual duplicator would make 4 copies at a time. This one, I forget if it does one or two, but it does them so quickly and the final product needs far less hand finishing.

I'll try to stop by his new shop tomorrow and take some pictures.

[Cygnus X1]

Great discussion, and excellent description ~K~.
I'm on a different track these days but CNC and modelling was
my full time occupation for many years.
I started with Autodesk plotters and Fanuc 6 series!
Shows how long ago that was...

I don't see automatic tool changes as being all that cost effective in a production run
for making guitars.
What are we talking, maybe four different tools?
When you get to a 12 tool magazine, then sure, a simple duplex flipper works great.
4-second tool change and you're set.
A good operator is a 10-second change?
Not much to brag about for increased efficiency, for cost justification.

[Jayster]

Cigz,

With some basic automation you could easily run a 24/7 production on 'the' CNC. If your familliar with GE fanuc, you should also be familliar with basic PLC automation. I guess the real question of this thread is, does the actual demand for USA Jacksons demand the necessity of full automation vs. the archaic production techniques of the past?



Don't get me wrong, I still believe in artisian craftsmanship as opposed to 'sterile' duplicity. So in other words, as long as Jackson keeps making the best guitars on Earth ~ I'ma keep on loving 'em!!!!!

[Learn Guitars]

A lot of great technical information here. I use Rhino Cad myself, I do not do the tooling, just the designing with it. One consideration that has not been made is the fact that the master builders at Jackson are not the CNC programmers. When Mike or Pablo are building a custom, they do not have time to sit and wait for a machine to open up for a onesie. They get in there with their hands and what equipment is available to them. I would say that them guys prefer to do it by hand with out the aid of a CNC.

Runs are a completely different story of course, but I thought it was regarding custom pieces. My bad if I misunderstood the OP's intention for the thread.