The return of the student series

[xenophobe]

I've always thought they should follow Gibson's model and have Special, Standard, and Custom models, with features that follow accordingly.
The Special lines would have dots on rosewood, and no binding and a limited range of finishes and hardware/pickup configurations (Students without graphics option).
The Standards would have maple/rosewood boards and better-than-dots inlays (the sharkeyes, but without the abalone center) with more finish and hardware/pickup options (the Student models with MOTO/Ebanol options).
The Custom would be just like they were in the SD days - ebony, binding, MOP fins/other inlays, fancy tops, more/better finish options, etc.

Then you'd have the Custom Shop on top of that.

Do away with the Professional line and make that the Special/Standard USA line - built not as good as the Custom or CS, but better than an Epiphoney or LTD or RG.

I'd be much happier if they would do something like Carvin and let you select specific features for base models and let you place an order like that. There really is no reason why you shouldn't be able to select standard feature options like sharkies, rev sharkies, dots or blank board without much upcharge. Sure, they would get far less true custom orders, but then you wouldn't have to wait 2 years for a minor modification or something completely custom. Only orders with unique user specifications should be custom orders. Wanting a blank ebony board or rev sharkies or rev headstock shouldn't constitute a full custom order.

[charvel750]

I'm sure you all know this already, but the original Jackson "Student Series" was ultra high quality and as good as any of their Customs. Just different cosmetics, but attention to detail was there as were all the high quality components. So if you say bring back the Students, they are still going to be extremely expensive. I can't recall for sure, but I think the price difference was only $200-$300 difference...

[Grim]

My opinion is that if Gibson can sell SG standards at $1200, Fender can sell American Standards at the same price range, this is a plausible idea to hit that 1500 dollar range. That said, I wouldn't buy one.

[guitarnut1980]

I think it could be an excellent way to compete with (Destroy) the ESP's Standard Series at least ( although I opened a thread about possibly buying one down the line ). Here is my whole idea

Same basic specs as the Selects but

1. Maple or rosewood boards with dot or just 12th fret inlays
2. Same Pickups or something in close comparison
3. no crazy graphics, but an extended selection of solid colors
4. Chrome only hardware
5. Maybe even bolt-on only for the time being to ( hopefully ) lower the price
6. Models - Dinky (Soloist), RR, Kelly, V, Archtop Dinky (Please!!!!), Warrior


Sound Good?

[ralph]

meh

[xenophobe]

Student models were custom guitars. If you want a student model now, it's a custom order. If you ordered a student model then, it was a custom shop guitar with cheaper wood and cheaper inlays. Student models were cheaper because they skimped on the upgrades, not the workmanship... rosewood instead of ebony and dots instead of sharkies. That was the low budget model for Jackson at the time. They, not so cleverly, changed to mass/batch production to reduce costs. This put out less expensive guitars letting them include better standard features... so if you got your wish and got a new "Student" model line, they wouldn't really be student models because they'll be mass produced.

Just the reasoning behind wanting a new student model line makes my head spin...

[Grim]

Student models were custom guitars. If you want a student model now, it's a custom order. If you ordered a student model then, it was a custom shop guitar with cheaper wood and cheaper inlays. Student models were cheaper because they skimped on the upgrades, not the workmanship... rosewood instead of ebony and dots instead of sharkies. That was the low budget model for Jackson at the time. They, not so cleverly, changed to mass/batch production to reduce costs. This put out less expensive guitars letting them include better standard features... so if you got your wish and got a new "Student" model line, they wouldn't really be student models because they'll be mass produced.

Just the reasoning behind wanting a new student model line makes my head spin...

I think you're missing the point -- Nobody's asking for custom shop worksmanship. They're asking for a less opulent line of USA-made Jacksons.

[xenophobe]

I think you're missing the point -- Nobody's asking for custom shop worksmanship. They're asking for a less opulent line of USA-made Jacksons.

They've already done that and failed. How much does an RR2 or SL2 sell for? They were unpopular and nobody bought them.

So you'll end up spending 2-3x the price of a nicer MIJ model just for a crappier guitar with a Made in USA logo? lol. Right.

I get the whole idea for a cheaper USA, but it's not going to happen again.


Ok, I just looked it up. $1300 for a Student $1500 for a Custom in 1984. Right now you'll spend about $2300 on a new USA Select. So if that guitar were $2100, would you more likely buy it without binding, sharkies and a cheap rosewood neck? Probably not. Would you instantly lose about $1000 of perceived value as soon as you bought it? Absolutely.

But of course, this is a fantasy bullshit thread where everyone expects everything for free... and these guitars should sell on the market for under a grand too, eh? Seriously, what would you expect to pay for a student model if the standard USA Select price is too big for your wallet?

They're not going to be suddenly affordable if you replace the bound ebony and sharkies with unbound rosewood and dots. That's a savings of $200 at most.

So, in reality, the whole difference isn't going to really amount to squat.

[Newc]

Student models were custom guitars. .. so if you got your wish and got a new "Student" model line, they wouldn't really be student models because they'll be mass produced.

Just the reasoning behind wanting a new student model line makes my head spin...

You of all people should know that not every single guitar Jackson built before 1989 was done so to fill an order placed by a customer. You know good and well that Jackson built a lot of guitars and basses of their own volition for the primary purpose of having a physical product on-hand and in-house to serve as advertising for the brand, whether it was at NAMM or for magazines to review/report on.
They also had to have enough of the various models to ship to dealers who were not yet fully aware of what Jackson was capable of doing. While all the other makers were copying Gibson and Fender designs (including Ibanez, Hamer, Kramer, and Carvin), BC Rich were the only ones to have their own unique designs until Jackson came along. For a dealer seeing a new brand like Jackson in the early 80s, the first thing they're going to ask is "what do you have besides that model the dude who plays for Ozzy uses?"

Jackson isn't going to say "well, fill out an order form and select from these available options and you'll see", they're going to build a Rhoads or Soloist Student and a matching Custom so the dealer and prospective buyers can see first-hand the differences between the pricing. Yes, the Student was as much built by Mike Shannon and Tim Wilson and Mike Eldred as the Custom was, and just as good quality as Rhoads' personal Vs, but while Randy's were true Custom Shop models, not everything else was.

To say that Jackson cannot build a USA-made neckthrough for under $1000 is incomprehensible, since Carvin has been doing it for decades. However, whether they WANT to or not is another matter entirely, as one of Grover's founding principles was "people associate high-cost with high-quality - they see a high price tag and immediately associate it with better quality".
Of all the thing's that has changed about Jackson over the years, that didn't.


However, Jackson is now owned by FMIC, rather than being its own entity and competing head-to-head with FMIC, so that philosophy may not have been the best one to follow after all.

[xenophobe]

You of all people should know that not every single guitar Jackson built before 1989 was done so to fill an order placed by a customer. You know good and well that Jackson built a lot of guitars and basses of their own volition for the primary purpose of having a physical product on-hand and in-house to serve as advertising for the brand, whether it was at NAMM or for magazines to review/report on.

That's irrelevant. There was really no difference between a custom, student and whatever they had in stock. There were no large batches, they were all done one at a time. Yes, they made custom guitars for backstock in standard configurations. Does that mean they weren't custom guitars? Duh. Do I really need to spell that one out for you?

A typical USA Select sells for $2300 out the door. Please, in all your magnificent glory, explain how they'll be able to do it for under a grand just by changing fretboard material, inlays and neck binding. Umm... hate to tell you, but USA Selects are already made using cost-cuttting measures. I guess you could hire high school kids during the summer to churn out $1000 USA models. That would go over well. I'm sure you would buy a dozen.

Carvin's business and merchandise model is completely different than Jackson and comparing them is pure idiocy. Hey look at KIA cars... I should be able to get a Aston Martin for about the same price. /facepalm

Oh yeah, Jackson could build a neck-thru for under a grand.... Oh wait, they couldn't even do that 28 years ago. The price, is the price. I'm sure you could get a really nice brain surgeon to operate for $10 an hour just like your gardener, but would you want that?

[markD]

my opinion? i personally would not buy a USA jackson with rosewood and dots, even though i have NO issue with rosewood and dots. i had a KILLER jackson strat with a bound rosewood neck and dots. i WOULD buy an updated version of the "2" series guitars with one change. instead of having a JT580LP trem, put the 1000 series floyd on it. the rest of that series was acceptable as an affordable alternative to the higher priced selects.

regarding whether jackson CAN make the USA guitars more affordable....i do not know. maybe if they eliminated the dealer network - which seems pretty crappy anyway...at least where i live. since FMIC's 20% price increase i have seen very few USA select models available in the stores around my area. two local dealers have stopped carry jackson/charvel all together because they cost too much and sit too long. they will graciously order me one, or take CS orders.

anyway, i understand the desire for an affordable USA, but i have come to equate jackson with PRS. if you want the real deal you gotta bend over and pay the price....

[xenophobe]

anyway, i understand the desire for an affordable USA, but i have come to equate jackson with PRS. if you want the real deal you gotta bend over and pay the price....

I honestly don't see a way to make them all that much cheaper. Fire all of the master builders... they make what, 60-100k ea per year and have a combined salary of maybe 300-400k a year? That would drop the costs significantly. Fire all of the regular workers and hire unskilled labor at $10 an hour? Check. Order lower grade body wood, lower grade neck wood and lower grade fretboard material. Check. Replace mother of pearl with mother of toilet seat or delrin? Check. Use cheaper paint and less coats? Check. Use crappy tuners, cheap knockoff pickups and cheaper bridges. Check. What does that make?

That makes a guitar almost nobody here would buy. Their QC standards would also have to be lowered somewhat to compensate for less skilled people making them. You would have a guitar that cost more than the imports and had far crappier specs.

And like I stated previously, Jackson already tried this with the RR2 and SL2. They didn't sell. Nobody wanted them.

[markD]

i am on your side. jackson is a premium brand. personally, i'd like to see them eliminate the JS garbage and focus their money on a better dealer network. the USA jackson is a respectable guitar and very much the equal to PRS and other high-end production guitars. like i said, if you want one you gotta pay the price. in my opinion, fender has jackson as a "prestige" brand anyway. i could be wrong, but that is how it seems and i have no problem with that.

[xenophobe]

Yeah, I wish I could see how they could make a $1000 USA Soloist... It would do more to harm the brand name than get you what you want at half the price.

I swear, the entitlement generation is rubbing off on everyone these days.

[j2379]

a student model to lower pricing wouldn't work like it did back in the day. Quality rosewood is more expensive than ebony, it wasn't back in the old days. really the only cost savings would be the labor on the binding and sharkies as compared to dot inlays; not much of a savings. just like the model series of old, you make the lower models/lines too good and buyers wonder why they should pay from a USA models. back in 88 as a kid i chose a model6, i was young, not rich and couldn't justify paying double the price for an ebony board just so it said Jackon made in USA. Funny that model 6 is the only import I've kept thru the years and still IMHO is as good as any USA made guitar.