Whats with Jackson making mostly cheap shitty axes nowadays?!?!?

[Hamner1]

It's not about either. Fender has horribly mis-managed the brand name. Just look at their history and you can see they don't know what to do with it. They recently shut down Hamer for the exact same reason. They didn't know what to do with it and trying to figure out took too much of their time away from other products, which they also don't know what to do with.

I think maybe we are talking about the same thing when I refer to marketing & you refer to mismanaged the brand. I cannot argue with you on this point. I believe I am in agreement with you on this. Again Jackson has too many lines/price points. Unfortunately they are starting or rather have been blending together the last few years. Someone else mentioned Sharkfins = Jackson. I don't disagree, but I also think Jackson & even Charvel should have an air of a "cut above"/not your average axe. Which to me means the JS/Beginner/low price point imports should be branded something else with the "by J/C" or under liscense of J/C. Something along those lines.

I don't understand why Fender doesn't know what to do with these lines (not just Jackson). They all created a niche in a certain segment, why move away from that I do not know. I get branching out some, but the core "value" if you will should still be present regardless. I think back to the Jazz'r models 10 years ago. Granted that was before FMIC, but it made no sense to me. Why try to compete with Gretsch & Gibson in that market? It's not going to work. The other issue I have is, changing the headstock. Outside of the classic Jackson pointy headstock, how many other headstock designs have they gone with/through. Fender & Gibson have not changed to try & keep up with the changing scene/mood & they are still around & successful. As I stated before the headstock design is iconic, don't F with it.

I'm sorry, I don't know what guitars you are talking about. My MIK Stealth doesn't just smoke the Jackson import line, it does things that even Jackson USA can't do. I'm talking about the $1400 MSRP MIK price point, not the $300 one so perhaps you're just confused...

I will go with I was just confused.
As for the BC Rich's I have tried in the last 10 years, NT Warlock (the only neck-thru BCR I have played), JRV, Warlocks (bolt-on), Beast, Mockingbird, & Bich. Other than the neck-thru Warlock the BCR's have been in the $300-$400 price range. I tend to compare price points & not focus on is this supposed to be at this quality level, because in my opinion if a $300 guitar smokes a $400, $500, or $600+ guitar, I am getting the $300 guitar. This goes for all guitar brands Epiphone, Jackson, JB Player, BCR, ESP, Ibanez, LTD, Peavey, etc. It is one of the reasons I struggle to buy site unseen. Yes I have played my share of Jacksons that didn't do anything for me. Yes they tend to be the entry level line. But what I was saying is at the same basic price point I prefered the Jacksons. That may be due to a number of factors that make the Jackson more familiar/comfortable/"better" to me. The NT Warlock was the best BCR I played other than a USA Warlock I purchased new in '86. But I still don't think it played or sounded better than my SLSXMG.

[xenophobe]

But they did figure the chinese hamer line out. they redid the line and now call they The Desolation Charvels.

Ouch. Yeah, you could put a Hamer headstock on them and people would be like... "oh, that's cool".

I don't disagree, but I also think Jackson & even Charvel should have an air of a "cut above"/not your average axe. Which to me means the JS/Beginner/low price point imports should be branded something else with the "by J/C" or under liscense of J/C. Something along those lines.

I absolutely agree.

I don't understand why Fender doesn't know what to do with these lines (not just Jackson). They all created a niche in a certain segment, why move away from that I do not know. I get branching out some, but the core "value" if you will should still be present regardless. I think back to the Jazz'r models 10 years ago. Granted that was before FMIC, but it made no sense to me. Why try to compete with Gretsch & Gibson in that market? It's not going to work. The other issue I have is, changing the headstock. Outside of the classic Jackson pointy headstock, how many other headstock designs have they gone with/through. Fender & Gibson have not changed to try & keep up with the changing scene/mood & they are still around & successful. As I stated before the headstock design is iconic, don't F with it.

Fender isn't doing a bad job as far as Fender and Squire is concerned. I just think Jackson and Hamer are too far out of their norm for their design and marketing staff. They're used to doing vintage really well, modern super-strat so-so-ish and pretty much fail at the metal game. So there are a bunch of vintage loving corporate types and that's why Charvel is a better brand than it was a decade or more ago while Jackson has been flailing. Yes, I said flailing not failing. The whole Jenna Jameson thing is a perfect example. So some guy at Fender had a Jenna infatuation. I think it did nothing but flood the market with sub-par guitars at inflated prices. But Fender needed Jackson to perform, not just what they had been doing, but to make up for the balance sheet and that's what it came down to a gimmick instead of something real.

I will go with I was just confused.
As for the BC Rich's I have tried in the last 10 years, NT Warlock (the only neck-thru BCR I have played), JRV, Warlocks (bolt-on), Beast, Mockingbird, & Bich. Other than the neck-thru Warlock the BCR's have been in the $300-$400 price range. I tend to compare price points & not focus on is this supposed to be at this quality level, because in my opinion if a $300 guitar smokes a $400, $500, or $600+ guitar, I am getting the $300 guitar. This goes for all guitar brands Epiphone, Jackson, JB Player, BCR, ESP, Ibanez, LTD, Peavey, etc. It is one of the reasons I struggle to buy site unseen. Yes I have played my share of Jacksons that didn't do anything for me. Yes they tend to be the entry level line. But what I was saying is at the same basic price point I prefered the Jacksons. That may be due to a number of factors that make the Jackson more familiar/comfortable/"better" to me. The NT Warlock was the best BCR I played other than a USA Warlock I purchased new in '86. But I still don't think it played or sounded better than my SLSXMG.

The newer mid-range BC's MIK are fantastic instruments... but it's just as much a Korean World Guitar built with USA specs. The same plant is producing some of the LTDs and PRS SE edition guitars as well, and they're getting similar reviews. Very well made and a nice price for what you get. That's not to say there hasn't been any low end garbage from that factory, I'm sure there is, but the mid/high range import guitars are absolutely fantastic and Jackson's offerings do not compare to them at similar price points. The MIC Charvels do not compete at that price point, which is why everyone has them for sale but nobody has them as players.

[stevoc]

With stiff competition from cereal packets with elastic bands on them?

They come as prizes in cereal boxes.

Seriously, $100.00 buy you a guitar, amp, strap, chord, picks, extra strings. The axe is junk though, I tried one, no thanks.

[holycross1]

I will never buy a Chinese-made Jackson or Charvel. Yeah, yeah I know, 'it's a global economy now' blah blah. I don't care. I'm glad I got one of the last USA-made Charvels. They may play fine now, but who knows what the quality of wood is in those, or how properly the wood was prepped. There is zero pride of workmanship in those Chinese factories.

Funny....You know the idea of having pride in workmanship comes with a living wage and personal time to raise a family and enjoy the fruits of that pride you earn. They are not a bunch of thankless money grubbing leaches.
They will build a guitar as well as you pay them to. They will have pride in the things that bring enrichment to their own lives.
Their culture in China has made slaving their own to turn a profit an everyday cultural experience. I am not defending FMIC. I am defending the REAL builders.
FMIC does not build guitars. The farmed out labor does.
The chinese can build a damn fine guitar when the right conditions exist.
When FMIC bought Guild and started producing a Chinese line, they were and are still excellent guitars for the money. FMIC had a USA based wood buyer that would personally oversee the selection process and material deliveries. They made damn sure that the guitars were a great playing experience the first time you played a chord.
I Understand that The Chinese have been seen as a crappy work force. But the facts are that since the Guild line was established their, they have fallen on a drought. And areas of China are seeing starvation killing off record numbers. That is driving desperate folks to cities and industrial areas in hopes of surviving.
And just like any other crisis, their government and international corporations are exploiting the influx and paying them less and hiring more to boost production numbers, not quality.
Pride is a luxury that most of them can't afford. Hong Kong and areas like that are kept happy and prosperous looking for the photo value. But the reality is horrific.

Having said that. I think the quality coming from China is great for what I have seen considering their state of affairs. But after seeing what they did rolling out Guild back in 2004. I expected the same or better roll out and attention to product with a proactive interaction with the manufacturing process. But I have not felt that level of excellence with the Charvel/Hammer factory.
FMIC left to many folks in charge at Jackson/Charvel Manufacturing when they bought the company from AKAI music group.
The culture of J/C was blaming AKAI for less then attractive business models and suppressing management of J/C from what I understood during the changeover.
Of course FMIC was given the impression that these folks would do most of the work and had a plan for merging cultures.
Lets just say they had ideas. Follow through? Not so much. Old outdated websites and communication issues are a sure sign that J/C's problems were systemic.
FMIC made the mistake of letting them work out their own kinks. They did not produce as promised. So what do you think FMIC did? they put them to work on other lines and artist models outside the brand. EVH anyone.
They shelved production and improvement of their own brand to do The EVH roll outs and I am sure the Fender custom shop and Master builder program. They saw talent, but not true business sense that would survive without getting something more for their purchase of J/C without putting them to work on something.
The changes that you see now in model line up will make more sense I am sure as FMIC gets their own hands more deeply involved.
The Japanese factory went bankrupt. Not FMIC's fault.
J/C manufacturing should have been a more proactive and financially involved "manufacturer" that had its own facility and partnered with those builders after all these years. They should have been able to absorb that facility and kept manufacturing runs going. Plus cutout a middle man expense that would have made them more profitable per sale.
I am not saying all of the issues addressed on this thread are J/C's fault and not FMIC's. But they were suffering well before FMIC stepped in. And FMIC should have been more proactive and hands on from the beginning to transform the image of the brand from previous years.
The Model lines are not supported by the old school Jackson devotee anymore. I have read more pronouncements of doom from self proclaimed "old school" players over the last 10 years then I can count.
You would think Obama is the President of FMIC from the flaming of guitars before they ever hit the markets after their announcements from FMIC. And the Good old days before FMIC were the only good old days.
J/C custom Shop delivery times have been crap since before FMIC. They have gotten worse at times for sure. But thats their own doing by not being more innovative with their time.
Why is Mike Shannon not matched by an apprentice or 6 by now? Or any of the other go to guys?
Jackson/Charvel has only recently in the last 3 years begun to make significant and visible changes that are a sign of new priorities and drive for market share. And all in the worst economic downturn in years/decades.

I hope to see more support and less flaming as time goes on.

But the flaming, and even unqualified remarks made about product features that have been in the J/C stable for years before FMIC that just didn't do well when first introduced. The 3+3 headstock for one. And the Charvel DC model are old hat. But I have read flames calling them rip offs of ESP and now Hammer. Or archtops being called Schecter ripoffs.
750XL?
Schecter and Charvel were joined at the hip back in the day before Grover ran Wayne out I believe. And Tom Anderson was out of Schecter and Suhr came out of them to if my memory serves me. So it all comes back around. Nothing new under the sun. LOL

I am a Jackson devotee in every sense of the word. Even paying attention to their business practices and how the MI trends are where they have fallen behind on time and time again. That's a J/C culture issue.
They need a new cultural approach that secures the brand survival I believe IMHO.
I would not be surprised to see a DK2 H/S/S with sharkies make an entrance back into the lineup with sharkies (a Rickenbacker signature inlay) and a Dinky Reverse with Piranha replacing offset dots. It just makes sense. But it also makes sense to make new shapes and models (like the Morton and Broderick signatures) and get an import model out ASAP and exploit every bit of press and fame of the players image playing that guitar for sales. A bolt on Broderick would sell well. Reverse the 3+3 and 3+4 headstock on more models.
The first guitars off the line that have flaws should be given to the band saw like they did with the guilds. Set that standard for what wares the Logo by only putting out the best up front. They will get better at consistency of excellence.
To be a market leader you have to do what nobody else is doing, or has never been done.

But here is the clincher.
Guitar Center is in bad financial condition. They have not been paying bills to suppliers like they should. They have a loan for 100's of millions that has a 9.9% interest rate that is coming due in April I believe.
If they go under FMIC looses all the product that is in the GC inventory that has not been paid for. The banks will get theirs first. And after Mars Music and Thoroughbred Music causing losses for all the suppliers, FMIC may wait to see what comes of GC before stocking their shelves with the latest J/C offerings.

Even ESP has launched a new program focusing on the private dealerships for this coming quarter.
They know something.
Dealers are hearing more from the ESP reps in the last few weeks then they have in the last few years. Thats a sign of things to come in my experience. The smaller dealers will carry them through the coming shortfalls and push sales through that they would lose catering to dying retail chains.
FMIC should be doing the same. That's why you see Targets, COSTCO, Walmart and Best Buy stocking their shelves with FMIC and Peavey Branded merchandise. It maybe what saves them from collapse in the event of the largest inventory loss ever for them. And devaluation from inventory being dumped by the banks on liquidation sales. They have more then Mars and Thoroughbred combined tied up in GC.
GC has not posted a decent profit for a couple of years.
Mars was building stores and buying out stores when they went under.

So flaming products that were not marketed for you, by a company that has plenty of models that are marketed to you, is just a waste of time.
Lets support the products they have that we want and are able to buy. And let the next generation do the same without a bunch of old farts trashing what they might like, and sending them to another brand that has a more diverse and supportive image. Think ESP culture.
Your pointies will not disappear. But they will share room with more shapes and ideas over time. Its natural.

As always. You guys have a great weekend. And remember this is just my long winded observation. Probably off topic as I always end up. But that's okay.

[xenophobe]

stuff

Wow, a lot of that is just plain wrong.

The Japanese factory went bankrupt. Not FMIC's fault.

And that's just bullshit.

[holycross1]

Bankrupt is the wrong word. I should have used shut down due to inability to keep their doors open.
Like I said. They are just observations.
And if I am wrong, please say where with a correction. I am open to seeing it another way.
I also sold Jackson/Charvel for a number of years at stores I was hired by to renovate and put back on the road to making money. Not big names. But what I brought to the table always made them successful. Not in a small way either. When they sell 3x their previous year in just 9 months, I can assume that what I did worked. Even in the bible belt. LOL
I would still make Jackson Charvel my first call to do another store.
But after being screwed by one of the last stores financial managers, I am kind of leery about running another that is not all mine. A lot of money was left at 2 stores that my family needed at a pivotal time. Years later, it still has an impact on me. Don't know why. Just does. A lot of work for nothing in the end.
I love the brand. I have maybe misunderstood what I have seen since the 80's.
And Xenophobe is a trusted source. And I will entertain your insight.

[Nightbat]

I am a Jackson devotee in every sense of the word.

So much for an objective opinion then

[holycross1]

So much for an objective opinion then

This is a Jackson/Charvel forum right? LOL

[holycross1]

[Never made any claims to be completely or partially objective. =-)
I will always be partial to what I like, as would anyone.
I try not to slam opposing views or preferences. As they are formed by different experiences and qualifications.
My statements could all be thrown out for that alone. But being a member of a forum dedicated to a particular fetish or liking already guarantees a slant to my views. My observations of what may have happened behind the scenes of the FMIC and JCMC are just my speculation on what has caused passed issues. As I assume no company sets out to be a flop or lose money on an investment. So there is always some unspoken situations driving the issues. So since those things are never admitted to openly, I let my imagination fill in whatever scenario I think could be the simplest answer. And those possible ideas are influenced by my own situations in work and life. That alone will mess up objectivity. But its still fun sometimes.
I never slammed the builders. Just wonder why such excellent builders are not being matched or exceeded by the very prodigy they train. A little name dropping and promoting of those in the ranks by these master builders of the J/C dream.
I have heard that the Japan plant closed because of the Japanese economy, FMIC not renewing the contract, the owner retired, they were not making enough money for the work and orders to justify being open as of the last 2 years, to power issues in Japan from 2 or 3 power plants being shut down. Any one, or combination of those things could have had some truth. But they are out of business. They do not build guitars for the one client they had anymore.
Moody's has downgraded GC. Bain Capital still holds most, if not all the stock for GC. They show a lot of negative numbers. Their financials are public.
I am for the Mom and Pop stores? Yes. Thats where Jackson and Charvel used to be found.
GC may actually pull out of the slump. Its all possible. I just know that those numbers remind me a lot of Mars Music and the like.
Where are they now?

[xenophobe]

And if I am wrong, please say where with a correction. I am open to seeing it another way.

Cushin Gakki was tanked by Fender. A Japanese member of the forum here even spoke to the owner of the factory a few months after it closed. What really happened is pieced together, I'll requote what I posted earlier in this thread:

The Japanese factory didn't go out of business. Fender took advantage of their situation and purposely tanked the Japanese factory on purpose. One day the factory was working at full capacity and then went to shutting down the factory due to not having any orders. FWIW, Fender set up Charvel in China and was in full production at least 4 months before the Japanese plant was hung out to dry. Judging by the fact the old Japanese man who owned the factory was about to retire had to declare bankruptcy instead. Those are facts.

The conjecture is that Fender took advantage of the price point of their contract and when it came time to renew, said no. For the last several years of Japanese factory's contract had them making guitars at a loss and when Fender wouldn't pay more because the economy and cost of living and production had increased substantially, the plant had no other recourse and had to close.

There's no real way to look at it any other way.

[pro-fusion]

No doubt that FMIC would have problems if GC goes under. But the consensus I've seen is that GC has a couple more years before they really get into trouble. If the economy doesn't improve soon, the guitar business as a whole is going to be in a very bad place.

[holycross1]

Cushin Gakki was tanked by Fender. A Japanese member of the forum here even spoke to the owner of the factory a few months after it closed. What really happened is pieced together, I'll requote what I posted earlier in this thread:

Thank you Xenophobe. That explains a lot. So the bankruptcy and the retirement parts are substanciated. Just not what triggered it. Nobody was happy with the price of Japanese guitars at the end anyway. If they had updated products and and done the roll out, they still could have gotten many of us to fork over the cash. But now we may never know.

They are acting on a plan. Which is more then I can say was happening before. Just not a plan that rubs folks right.

They should have bought the guy out back in the Akai days. No way they could have made the X series sell side by side with the Japanese Pro line like it was. And to out do the x series for features and looks would drive a Japanese price through the roof into select pricing maybe. That would make for inventory sitting still at the dealers, if they stocked it at all.

I just wish they had done things differently. But the state of things are still what I was saying most likely.

Guess I just have to hope it helps the brand. And gives us better product in the future.

[Pointy]

The modern Pro line was the lower tier of the Japanese factory. They also made several artist series (Dominion, Demmelition etc) and high-spec models like the RR24, I am pretty sure other models too (dunno about Charvels). That was a distinct tier at a higher price point, completely different instruments than USA, too - no overlap there. Pretty narrow niche though when you look at it. Maybe if Jackson did an ESP and had dozens of premium signature models made there, then it would make more sense to keep the plant open. I guess it was something of a luxury for the brand in the end.

[Nightbat]

I guess it was something of a luxury for the brand in the end.

In the end it was just another take on 'maximizing profits'

Ít's not like the customers are seeing the cheaper labour back in the price, they're sold at old Pro prices, and somebody is recieving a bigger cut that way

[xenophobe]

Ít's not like the customers are seeing the cheaper labour back in the price, they're sold at old Pro prices, and somebody is recieving a bigger cut that way

Fender.

Fender doesn't seem to like the Japanese market. Fender Japan is pretty much like an autonomous subsidiary of Fender USA. They have their own set of low end, midrange and high end guitars for the Japanese market and have much more freedom to do what they want in regards to limited special orders. In Japan, a Factory Special Order is typically 10-20 guitars. In America, a Factory Special Run is about 500 units, give or take. Japanese Fenders aren't often imported by Fender USA especially now since they're making them in China too, but they have offered Japanese US-Market guitars here and there. A Fender Japan dealer many not sell new MIJ Fenders to anyone outside of Japan or they'll lose their dealer accounts. That's why you always see only used ones on ebay.

You really need to understand Fender Corporate before you can interpret what they're doing with their other brands, IMO.