Bad news guys

[Greg Crowe]

Re: Bad news guys

Sully, let me clarify on the "hand craftmanship" issue. The move away from totally handmade has been a slow one on the part of AMIC(Ft. Worth). Luckily, AMIC was too cheap to buy new machinery for the Custom Shop so that in itself kept the guitars fairly "handmade". Yes, in January 2002 when I was in the Custom Shop, body shapes were still being rough cut by hand using the old templates. I can post pics if you like.

One of the very first things Fender did after the buyout was bring some new machinery into the Ontario facility to help "modernize" production. I'm sure the guitars will be further "modernized" once production is setup in Corona.

It's the end of an era and only time will tell what will happen with the quality in material and build.

One thing myself and others are going to have a hard time stomaching is..... A new Charvel or DK-1 with a Corona, CA neckplate. That just says "Fender" to me.

How are you going to like your $2500 25th aniversary Charvels with Corona, CA neckplates? I'm sure you can see the business sense in taking orders and deposits BEFORE this move announcement was made. [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[ September 17, 2003, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Greg Crowe ]

[sully]

Re: Bad news guys

thanks greg, that's kinda what i was thinking already, but i liken the corona on the plates as just an address. however, we're just gonna have to wait and see. gotta admit that so far, things have been going well, but as always, time will tell.

sully

[~K~]

Re: Bad news guys

I agree with Greg on many points here myself .. but I want to clarify something .. It always bothers me when people think CNC work is a bad thing. Someone please explain the difference in a piece of wood that is routed square at 1"X1"x1" to a piece that is cnc'ed to the same dimensions?... there is no difference .. what does change is any variants that are created from the hand work .. hand sanding etc .. I don't think this process had changed very much since the guitars were hand routed .. what you end up with in CNC work is a part that doesn't have any change piece to piece and increased productivity ... Hell it's a lot easier to mill a neck on CNC than to use a pin router and templates ....where the issue lends itself to problems are things like fret work,bindings,wiring etc etc etc .. not the intial cutting of the wood provided it's loaded into the machine correctly ....

Maybe I'm a bit touchy on this but hell .. it is what I do for a living ..

[semagic]

Re: Bad news guys

I think Fender should do what they think is right
for "their investment". It's not my company, I don't want the company (I have enough problems of my own). I just want a well made guitar that has huge company to stand behind it. A place where I can get positive info and ideas. Fender bought it, their not giving it back, they won't run it ground. Sorry just too much whining and moaning about fender already! every frekkin thread goes in the same direction. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Greg Crowe]

Re: Bad news guys

Originally posted by KMaynard:
....where the issue lends itself to problems are things like fret work,bindings,wiring etc etc etc .. not the intial cutting of the wood provided it's loaded into the machine correctly ....

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bingo, exactly right! Don't forget quality in materials and parts also.

[shreddermon]

Re: Bad news guys

Well, let me throw my two cents in. (Again. [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] )

I agree with most of the above. On the "hand craftsmanship" issue, though, I'd say it all depends on how the changes are done. If the previously "handmade" (...not entirely accurate) necks are now spit out roughshod from machines, sure quality and feel will be worse. A machine can never "fine tune" a piece of wood as good as a person. But if the production of necks is made more automated with more accurate machinery, and final shaping and sanding is still done by hand with an attention to details, consistency and quality can, in fact, go up. And the main goal of less labor intensive production / less cost is ALSO acheived. Yes folks, both the manufacturer AND the consumer can benefit.

As to the USA Jackson vs. USA Fender comparisons, I say apples and oranges. Or, perhaps more accurately, apples and crabapples. Related, but different. Given that the typical USA Strat (...of which there seem to be hundreds of variations [img]graemlins/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] ) goes for somwehere around $400 and $700 less than a USA Select, I would expect a quality difference.

[Twisteramps]

Re: Bad news guys

One thing that amazed me when Greg and I were checking out the Fender CUSTOM SHOP guitars at our local dealer was the general lack of QC/quality. The guitars we checked out were Custom shop guitars. Top of the line.

We both had import Charvels and Jacksons that were built better... fretwork was nicer, fit and finish were better, etc. Heck, there were filing marks on the frets even... and they were STILL sharp on the edges!

Now, it may have just been some weird Fender "doin' like Leo did back in the old days with a bandsaw" kinda thing, but if USA Jacksons had that type of flaws, I'd be sorely disapointed.

My predictions? Quality is going to likely drop, and prices are going to go up. I'm not trying to be a doomsayer here, but if they move to a plant that makes guitars that I've seen were less than stellar, it only makes sense. How could Jackson, in the same building, put out better stuff than the others there? Everything is going to end up the same quality - either Jackson employees are going to make the Fender guys do better work, or the Jackson guys are going to 'fit in' with what's there.

Look for an eventual move to Mexico for some of the low level imports too.

Crossing my fingers in any event. Hey, at least we're getting stratheads now! [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Pete

[Boxcar Willie 84]

Re: Bad news guys

I know I'm supposed to be at the bottom of a lake right now, but my SD Jackson hasn't come back in the mail yet. A lot of you guys remind me of fans of a punk band who signs from a small, independent label to a big major label, yet still makes the same music and sounds the same as before...they feel betrayed and will hate whatever they do no matter how good it may be. Just give it a rest...there are more important things in life than where a brand new guitar,which several of you have even said that you're not going to buy any more of, is made.

[StukaJU87]

Re: Bad news guys

Boxcar must've just seen "Green Day-Behind the Music" [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Jerry From Ghana]

Re: Bad news guys

Originally posted by RacerX:
immense
consolidate

[img]graemlins/poke.gif[/img]

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">RacerX You are the sh!t. I get a big kick everytime I see these posts pointing out spelling errors, flanked by a picture of a pointy guitar playing, headbanging metalhead. Keep it up [img]graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[Accept2]

Re: Bad news guys

Jackson = Guild........Just a nameplate stuck on a CNC machined guitar coming off a line alongside the Fenders. Of course there will be alot of positives. CNC guitars are well made, and they get made fast. Before Fender took over Guild, they were only making 60 guitars a day. If you wanted to buy a Guild back then, good luck finding them, and they were expensive. Now, you can walk into any store and find them everywhere, and they are well made and they are less pricey too......But still, I've never met a fellow Guild collector who actually buys any of the new stuff.............

[Jim Shine]

Re: Bad news guys

I just wanted to clarify further (this is directed to Newc) that Fender never said anything about this over at the FDP. What happened was that one lucky FDP poster managed to go and visit the Custom Shop. While he was there he saw that in the building there was some sort of activity going on and asked what it was all about. He was informed that was going to be the future site of the Jackson Custom Shop. Fender didn't inform the FDP and leave the JCF out. An FDP poster was given info (possibly was not even supposed to be told) and he then told us in his post of his visit about the Jackson Custom Shop deal. Had Fender told us about it through Morgan or anyone else working for them, I would have posted about it here. It was posted by someone who was just there on a visit. I didn't have 100% confidence that it was true.

[ September 17, 2003, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Jim Shine ]

[RacerX]

Re: Bad news guys

That's fine, but if the move is happening in the next few days, exactly when were we going to be notified? [img]graemlins/brow.gif[/img] Seems like it would've gone a little ways for FMIC to announce it on the Fender and Jackson websites simultaneously before now. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but this "Let's make the move really quickly & secretly" stuff SEEMS funny.

Although, I am SURE we would still have a 7+ page threead about it! [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[ranalli]

Re: Bad news guys

Few points:

1) Why was it their responsibility to tell us?? It's not like we're shareholders in the company or anything. Yeah it would have been nice but it's not their responsibility to inform us of every little thing. I wouldn't have told this forum either seeing how people wigged out over 12 miles.

2) Make the guitar in f'ing Antarctica for all I care. Just give me good high quality Jacksons at good prices. If you really care that the next Jackson you buy is gonna have a different city on the neckplate then you probably are due to get your blood pressure checked. Remember the quality they were turning out in Japan in the early 90's and that was a different location AND different people.

3) CNC is good. Why waste time doing repetitive tasks by hand when CNC can cut that wood more accurately and more consistently. THE HUMAN QUALITY NEEDS TO BE IN THE QC NOT THE CUTTING OF WOOD. Keep the QC good and everything will be dandy...you need to be willing to toss out a $1000 guitar if the machine messed it up though...stick to it. Plus I'd rather have the man-power doing nice fretwork than carving a whole body out of a blank.

4) The same people using different equipment is no big deal. They'll adapt and still be able to make the same high quality guitars. The notion that the change in equipment is going to mess things up is just silly. Are you suddenly unable to drive when you buy a new car??? No, it feels a little awkward at first and then it's just as comfortable as your old car.

[xenophobe]

Re: Bad news guys

I'm really not too worried about Quality. If the same people will be making Jacksons, unless they're TOLD to skimp on some details that they're used to doing, I would expect them to continue. I hardly doubt they'll make a less-better guitar because of other employees in the same building.

I just hope that day-to-day operations, materials, scheduling, and all of the other production management, including paint and assembly are done by JACKSON personel who did it previously are still doing it after the move.

Seeing how that would be pretty redundant, that there are materials handlers, paint room, assembly areas and so forth for Fender custom shop operations already in place, that they will just integrate to reduce costs. This is what I fear the most. Not that the shop is moving, or they're getting new machinery, just that the Jackson Custom Shop isn't really just a seperate room of the Fender shop.

Other than them sharing the same building, I'd probably be most happy if they were allowed to operate completely independently of Fender operations. But I see that as highly unlikely.