Bad news guys

[gemini8026]

Re: Bad news guys

amen!

[Accept2]

Re: Bad news guys

So if it doesnt matter which building the guitar is built in, and only about 20 miles seperate Corona from Ontario, as well as only about 20 miles seperating San Dimas from Ontario, and those who ***** about Corona are whiners.......Ummm....Ahhhh....What the hell does that make the San Dimas buyers? Are they also little whinny kids because they only buy guitars made in a certain building, and when they moved 20 miles away, the whole thing fell apart?!?..............Are you saying that San Dimas guitars are the same as the ones built in Corona, and Ontario, and those that pay big bucks for SD guitars are total fools?.........

[Black Mariah]

Re: Bad news guys

Yes.


Did you expect a different answer or something? [img]graemlins/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[lerxstcat]

Re: Bad news guys

I think "fools" is the wrong word. San Dimas fans are quasi-religious in their view towards these guitars, and great as they are, if they're so far above all the rest, why are they relatively easy to fake? They do signify the first era of
Charvel/Jackson production, and are awesome, but even many SD owners on the board have attested their Model 2s are nearly as nice, at least in the vaunted neck profile. SD aficionados are invested in the idea of this superiority because if you ever admit that Ontario guitars are of the same quality, then the SD market value would fall. That's completely understandable, but you can expect those without that investment to take a more critical and maybe realistic view of the matter. Most objective C/J historians agree that Ontario guitars are of the same quality, and indeed that the peak of J/C quality construction was achieved in the early 90s at Ontario, and indeed in Japan. That violates SD dogma
but most of us want to buy a quality guitar, not join a new religion.

[ September 18, 2003, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: lerxstcat ]

[Greg Crowe]

Re: Bad news guys

You guys don't get it. It's not the fact that the guitar was physically built in San Dimas(or Ontario for that matter), it's the fact that those guitars were built with better materials, better features(binding over frets, 3 piece necks, etc.), and made totally by hand. Yes, there's the mysterious "mojo" factor involved but to me most of it has to do with a guitar that was built better and built to different and better specs. There is a perceived quality difference, a perceived "mojo", and an appreciation for the way the guitars were all built by hand.

The same kind of deal is going on with PRS guitars.

[Ralph E.]

Re: Bad news guys

The problem with this whole San Dimas "mojo" [img]graemlins/bs.gif[/img] is that there are many San Dimas guitars that are nothing more than average. When I sold off my collection (going from 40 down to 2), ironically I kept 2 Ontario guitars. Does that mean Ontario guitars have "mojo"? No, it means that I happened to find 2 kick ass guitars that were made in Ontario. There are good and bad and in-between from both factories, and this whole "mojo" thing is created by a few collectors who love watching the value of their stuff rise to ridiculous levels based only on perception.

History repeats itself, and this is the same stuff that happened with Fender strats. Pre-CBS, post CBS, blah blah blah. It's all a way for collectors (not players) to add a percieved value to their collectables. It separates the "big boys" (read big egos) from the little guys and most likely 20 years from now we'll have the same conversation about "mojo" and value concerning the Ontario vs. Corona guitars.

The best is when I hear a collector say something like:

"I have a '59 strat."

Who the f**k cares, can they play it, probably not, so tell me again why it's worth $12000? [img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

[Black Mariah]

Re: Bad news guys

Originally posted by Greg Crowe:
You guys don't get it. It's not the fact that the guitar was physically built in San Dimas(or Ontario for that matter), it's the fact that those guitars were built with better materials, better features(binding over frets, 3 piece necks, etc.), and made totally by hand. Yes, there's the mysterious "mojo" factor involved but to me most of it has to do with a guitar that was built better and built to different and better specs. There is a perceived quality difference, a perceived "mojo", and an appreciation for the way the guitars were all built by hand.

The same kind of deal is going on with PRS guitars.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, you made my point for me. Location means dick. People and specs mean everything. I don't agree that binding over frets is better, actually it's the easy way out, but you're spot on. I hate to say it but largely I agree with you on this point. [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] It would be simple enough to go back to using the same patterns and making the SAME EXACT guitars. But of course you'd always have the psycho SD guys saying they're not as good, no matter how good they are. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Greg Crowe]

Re: Bad news guys

Let's also not forget that San Dimas and early Ontario guitars were ALL CUSTOMS!!! Those guitars are unique. I'd much rather had a J serial numbered guitar than one that was built in a batch of 25, just to have another batch of 25 identical guitars built 2 months later.

In all honesty, my very best players and highest quality guitars come from 1986-1992.

[Soloist1]

Re: Bad news guys

Personally I see this as mainly a matter of opinion issue. On one hand I agree because I prefer the early Ontario guitars playability over any other. I've still seen a few issues with quality on the older guitars as well. They all have there plus and minus characteristics. My 2002 custom Warrior by far has the best quality inlays as do most of the new USA selects that I've seen or had. The early ones just didn't use the same quality inlay material IMO. But the necks on the newer Ontario's just can't compete as far as profile goes. The late 80's ones will win my vote everytime. But I have talked with other people that disagree with me on that. Just a matter of preference I guess. Either way my Warrior's neck is still nicer than any other major manufacturer out there.

Personally any kind of finish flaws that I have seen have been across the board. That's just going to happen with guitars that are built the way these are. I'm pretty damn anal when it comes to finish flaws and I can't say I have seen anything that is so bad that I couldn't just ignore it and write it off as a unique feature that just helps identify my guitar from another that might look like it.

Some things might change from this move and some might not. It's just going to be another chapter in the history of Jackson guitars. I believe FMIC has the best of intentions for the company and is trying to stick to the path Jackson has been on while trying to intergrate some newer build techniques that save time and money. Until we see a few of the new Corona axes first hand I'm not holding any judgement of what they might be like.

[~K~]

Re: Bad news guys

Part of what people aren't understanding in the so called san dimas mojo is that it has more to do with an elimintation of a series of guitars. Charvel went out the window and overseas after that .. take that and add in the fact that there were not a lot of guitars made it peaked peoples interest in em. you can't get em anymore etc ..the fact is it's true ..some of those guitars do in fact have the sweetest necks around.. to leesen the ontario guitars because of that is wrong .. I've heard this in comparision to the san dimas series in the 90's..they are dismissed by hard collectors as junk . I think those guitars are awesome in their own right ......

[Jim Shine]

Re: Bad news guys

Originally posted by Greg Crowe:
Let's also not forget that San Dimas and early Ontario guitars were ALL CUSTOMS!!! Those guitars are unique. I'd much rather had a J serial numbered guitar than one that was built in a batch of 25, just to have another batch of 25 identical guitars built 2 months later.

In all honesty, my very best players and highest quality guitars come from 1986-1992.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with you Greg. One thing I love about the 1983-1992 period is that because they were custom built on a one at a time basis, you are more likely to find two different guitars than two identical guitars. The differences give each guitar a unique personality.

[diablomozart]

Re: Bad news guys

The fact that there are some killer guitars amongst them dosen't hurt either!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...well said chuck...i happen o own wo of them... [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] ...both 1 3/4" necks...flat and thin...i've owned plenty s.d. charvels (over 20) these are he two that i always play and will always keep...d.m.

[Chuckracer]

Re: Bad news guys

Thank you, DM.

Lerx, I never said all SD's were magic. I was responding to the people who think SD players and lovers are fools when they have never played any of them.

[Chuckracer]

Re: Bad news guys

Oh, and Jimmy B.:

[img]graemlins/evilimages/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
[img]graemlins/evilimages/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
[img]graemlins/evilimages/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

(...cause I can't come up with a snappy response!)

[lerxstcat]

Re: Bad news guys

I guess I misunderstood you Chuck, and I do see your point. There's a reason those guitars have a mystique, no doubt about it. I just take guitars on an individual basis as to whether they thrill me to have in hand and play them, and what their pedigree is doesn't matter to me as much as whether I get that thrill playing them. That is all that matters to me.