Advantages of "behind the nut" locking nuts (like on a JT6 equipped Jackson/Charvel)?

[Number Of The Priest]

What are the advantages of "behind the nut" locking nuts, as seen on a JT6 equipped Jackson/Charvel? An example Charvel Model 4 headstock is below. Or was this to avoid patent infringement with Floyd Rose, where the locknut also serves double duty as THE ACTUAL NUT (start of the speaking length of the string)? It seems like you could avoid an additional string friction point (and thus theoretically increase string tuning stability) by combining the locking device with the nut itself, as a Floyd Rose locknut does. Locking strings behind the nut seems to serve a similar purpose (with the same number of friction points) as having a normal nut paired with locking tuners.

[hazar]

You can control the string height at the nut easier with an actual nut than just the locking nut. There is no reason this wouldn't work if your nut is well done.....................in my humble opinion

[Axewielder]

Yeah a real nut made by a luthier will theoretically mate up to the fingerboard better than a generic part. But the disadvantages in terms of tuning stability and overall wonkiness greatly outweight that in my opinion.

[Axewielder]

Also the tone snobs will surely chime in regarding the advantages of bone or ebanol or whatever over metal. But I run three distortion pedals on my board and by the time I click on all three it makes no goddamn difference whatsoever.

[metalhobo]

Yeah a real nut made by a luthier will theoretically mate up to the fingerboard better than a generic part. But the disadvantages in terms of tuning stability and overall wonkiness greatly outweight that in my opinion.

do people actually have tuning problems specifically because of the behind-the-nut locks? I always figured the short length between the nut and the lock combined with the lack of any binding on the nut would prevent instability, assuming the nut is cut well. I know I, as well as many others, have definitely noticed deceased stability of the Kahler+BTN lock compared with a Floyd+locking nut, but I always figured that was due to the single-locking nature of the Kahler as opposed to the BTN lock. I've never had a double locking setup with a BTN lock so I have no experience with that.

[metalhobo]

Kahler himself gives some good advantages in a video somewhere: you have complete control over the string radius and the string spacing. also, you don't need a huge flat shelf behind the fretboard like a for locking nut (very beneficial for retrofits)

[EntrailsOfU]

In theory there are plenty of advantages that were listed like radius etc. However in practice it doesn't work that well. I have three different guitars with the string lock and not a lock nut and only one actually stays in tune with floyd use, my model 5A. And I think that is just luck.

When I'm looking to buy any more model series guitars, I specifically look for the few that were made with a lock nut and not the string lock. They are more rare, but they are out there.

[DonP]

One of the reasons the 650XL was an improvement over the Model 6.

[EntrailsOfU]

One of the reasons the 650XL was an improvement over the Model 6.

I have seen model 6's with a kahler lock nut and not the string lock. But not many at all. My model 3dr has the kahler lock nut and I've seen several model 4's and 6's with lock nuts. Those were probably all near the tail end of the model series I would guess.

[JacksonPyro]

The behind the nut Kahler design was a FAIL. The locking device has zero value. it never worked as advertised. it is a detriment and causes every guitar that ive ever owned to bind the strings one way or the other at the nut or inside the Kahler device.

there are workarounds like oiling the strings where they go through the device or actually fighting the nut until you can achieve getting your guitar in tune. but i assure you that if you remove the POS you will be much happier. it should in NO WAY be considered a locking nut in the way we associate locking the strings at the headstock with a Floyd Rose design. With the Kahler, on real bar dive and its all over... strings get stuck in the nut itself or in the dumb ass Kahler device. I dont even know how Kahler got Jackson ton sign on to that system in the early 80s.

must have given Grover Jackson a whole bunch of good blow or something LOL

In theory there are plenty of advantages that were listed like radius etc. However in practice it doesn't work that well. I have three different guitars with the string lock and not a lock nut and only one actually stays in tune with floyd use, my model 5A. And I think that is just luck.

When I'm looking to buy any more model series guitars, I specifically look for the few that were made with a lock nut and not the string lock. They are more rare, but they are out there.

[toejam]

I dont even know how Kahler got Jackson ton sign on to that system in the early 80s.

They didn't. The behind-the-nut Jackson JT6 lock was made by Jackson and not the Kahler unit. They do work decent most of the time, but can wear down over time.
The Model 6 and Model 5A I owned stayed in tune just fine; then again, they did have the JT6 Floyd-type bridge and not an actual Kahler bridge.
Real Floyd nuts are definitely better, but the behind-the-nut lock was okay for the most part.

[metalhobo]

With the Kahler, on real bar dive and its all over... strings get stuck in the nut itself or in the dumb ass Kahler device.

I've never ever had that problem with my 1980s Kahler+BTN lock. granted the guitar does lose its tuning at a faster rate than a floyd since it's not locked at the bridge, but it's exactly as stable as a floyd when comparing a single dive bomb etc. to be fair, the string lock I'm using is not the original 1980s one, so it's not worn out, and the nut is a TUSQ nut that I cut myself.

a quick aside about nuts: a good luthier will tell you that in a properly cut nut, only the bottom half of the string will be in contact with the nut material, and the top half of the string will essentially be above the nut. this minimizes friction in the nut will still giving the string a stable platform. this is how I cut my nuts. many tuning problems occurring at the nut are a result from improper cutting, and should not be attributed to other factors. for the comment about losing the string lock altogether, well if your nut is cut properly and you do that, every time you do a dive bomb your string are going to pop out of the nut! (unless you have a string tree, which would increase the amount of binding anyway)

[eakinj]

All I can tell you, is that it made my tuning go flat every time i used it on my model 1 (1a? whatever it is) I took it off and put locking tuners on so when I tune it, it sounds fine. I'm the only owner of this guitar, and it was a huge part of my absolutely hating Jackson Charvel for a number of years. (I was young, leave me alone lol)

[DonP]

I have seen model 6's with a kahler lock nut and not the string lock. But not many at all. My model 3dr has the kahler lock nut and I've seen several model 4's and 6's with lock nuts. Those were probably all near the tail end of the model series I would guess.

Or aftermarket. I've seen videos of people doing it.

[EntrailsOfU]

Or aftermarket. I've seen videos of people doing it.

For sure, I have a model 6 that had this mod as well. But they've come stock too. You can tell by the head stock shape if it was done at the factory.