Expanding the line

[mattsmusiccenter]

Re: Expanding the line

It's all in the marketing, once Fender lines up some highly visible endorsers you'll see the company gaining popularity. I don't think they really need to branch out too much because they do what they do well and their guitars are known for what they are. There are a lot of new bands out there that are playing some form of heavey music that would make great Jackson endorsers.

Hopefully next time I go to Ozzfest (one of the ultimate "metal" tours), I'll see some Jacksons on stage!

Matt

[pro-fusion]

Re: Expanding the line

Originally posted by Black Mariah:
You don't see people calling Fenders 50's guitars, or Gibsons 70's guitars, but Jacksons are 80's guitars and that has to change, whether anyone here likes it or not.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But remember, as has been posted on this thread, Gibson and Fender didn't get where they are by chasing every passing trend--including the nu-metal guys with their one-finger chords playing PRS guitars. They did it by creating solid product lines that stand the test of time and convincing successive generations of players that the guitars are right for them. Jackson already has teh solid product line--it just needs to figure out how to get it in the hands of people that will influence sales among impressionable kids.

[LesPaulCustom]

Re: Expanding the line

I've been watching this thread with some interest, and I feel compelled to respond.

I agree with the statement that marketing is the key to the future success of Jackson/Charvel in any capacity.

This board is quite possibly the largest assembly of die hard Jackson/Charvel fans on the planet...so our "voice" is relatively tarnished...meaning we already either own one/several/many or are just guitar players that grew up with them and refuse to give them up.

Think about marketing in todays guitar/music magazines and the media in general. What do you see most of these nu-metal phuck heads playing? Ibeenhad, PRS, Gibson Les Pauls and some others that form the minority.

Lil Johnny in high school who wants to rock Suzy Rottencrotch's world want's to be "cool" and gets mom and dad to buy him that gee whiz golly gee purdy Ibanez that Munky plays so maybe he can get his lil dick wet with Suzy on Friday night [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

It simply comes down to this...we grew up in a different era....we survived the 80's and all its decadance....but still love the music and our heroes....some of them were Rhoads, Van Halen, Ratt, Dokken, Metallica, and many others.

FMIC/-J/C need to target lil Johnny in the classroom or expand their artist relations department to get visibility on the big stage and magazines and get the "word" out.

For Jackson to go after and target recognized "guitar gods" in their marketing/endorsements would be pure folley and futile. I can't see Yngwie or Blackmore playing a SL-1 or Rhoads anytime in the near future.

Jackson hasn't lasted this long by being stupid, it will just take a different approach and a concerted effort.

This is just my opinion, so please don't torch me guys.... [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Boxcar Willie 84]

Re: Expanding the line

Newc I think you need to pay a bit more attention to what's going on currently. "Gnu metal" as you call it is nowhere near as popular as it was a few years ago. What's popular now is stuff that is more punk tinged and this new breed of hardcore that is coming up fast. Almost everyone in the bands that are in these styles play Les Pauls and Fender P-basses. Everyone. I can count on one hand the number of guitarists that I saw at Warped Tour who weren't playing a Les Paul...and there were 30 bands there. I think that Jackson needs to mix things up a bit. The SLS and the new King V are a good start. It is possible to stay true to your roots while breaking new ground and doing new things. I think a big reason that Jacksons are considered 80s guitars is that the whole mentality behind them is so 80s...the big makers were building crap at that point, and the smaller shops were giving the players what they want. It's simply not like that anymore. There are too many guitars like Charvel/Jacksons out there, and the big makers are better than they were at the point that Charvel/Jackson started. Why would Jade Puget, Justin Cronk, Kris Roe, and Tom Keely play a Jackson copy of a Les Paul when they are perfectly happy with their Gibsons?

[Newc]

Re: Expanding the line

I agree 100% that Jackson needs to target both current and future players. Current players want a freebie because they hear about so-and-so got a free guitar. Future players will want something flashy AND inexpensive. They want something that gets the sound AND the look of their heroes, and the parents that buy them their first electric want to get out cheap (because an ADD kid with a $900 RR5 is financial suicide).
There's no Rhoads model for the same price as the JS-20 and 30. Why not? Get on it. ESP is working on it right now, as is Ibanez - getting a decent-quality AND identifiable model to your lowest line is essential to establishing new buyers. You don't want just those that are new to Jackson, you want to be in that selection range for new guitar buyers period.
If Mommy has the choice between a $150 Squire and a $350 Jackson, Mommy's gonna go Squire. You have to convince Mommy that yours is worth the extra money - better tone, better playability, all the features that Lil Billy will need as he progresses.

Newc

[slayer]

Re: Expanding the line

NEWC, you hit that statement right on the head, i agree with that. Get them in their hands first, if they take to playing they will move up your line in quality, that`s good marketing, smart marketing, they all do it, even Jackson, but talking Little Johnny into the Jackson over the PRS Santana SE or Epiphone LP Standard in a tough chore. Jack.

[eddie_van_earache]

Re: Expanding the line

I am sure Fender will run jackson just fine.

[Sephiroth]

Re: Expanding the line

Fender has exactly 100,000,000,000,000 variations of the strat, so I do hope Jackson expands a bit.

I personally want more neck-thru's on imports, and more finishes on USA's, but I've been saying that since I first go to this forum only to see one less import neck-thru (KV-4) and USA finishes used on import models. It won't kill them to take a $350 DK-2, add neck-thru, and sell it for $600 without comprising quality. Fender even made an econo-suck Stagemaster neck-thru for around $250, so Jackson can most certainly do it with better wood/parts but still not in the $1000 area.
I'd also like to see an occasional set neck show up in a production model a lot more than what we've seen in the past.

[Newc]

Re: Expanding the line

A $600 neck-through DK-2 would be an SL-3 - the trouble is convincing the dealers to sell it for $600 and not $1000.

Newc

[Black Mariah]

Re: Expanding the line

They did it by creating solid product lines that stand the test of time and convincing successive generations of players that the guitars are right for them.

Bulls**t. Nobody needs convincing to play a Gibson or Fender, and that's the problem for Jackson. People NEED to be convinced that Jacksons aren't s**tty sounding 80's guitars. Jackson did nothing during the late 80's or throughout the 90's to divest themselves of the 'pointy shredder guitar' association, and they need to do so.

If Mommy has the choice between a $150 Squire and a $350 Jackson, Mommy's gonna go Squire.

What about a $200 Jackson? The JS30 destroys any Squire you can name, but doesn't sell for s**t. The fact is, parents that don't play simply don't care about quality. S**t, even those that DO play don't care. All they care is getting something into Timmy's hands that'll keep his sticky mitts off of their SG. There's no sense competing for that super-low-end market because that's strictly the realm of dips**ts that want to play guitar today, but do something completely different next week.

Fender even made an econo-suck Stagemaster neck-thru for around $250, so Jackson can most certainly do it with better wood/parts but still not in the $1000 area.

No, they can't do it for $250. To do that you'd have to lower yourself to the s**tty Korean standard set by Squire. Do you REALLY want that? Think about how much damage the Indian built models have done. The first Jackson I ever played was a DX1 and it had me thoroughly convinced that Jacksons suck.

A $600 neck-through DK-2 would be an SL-3 - the trouble is convincing the dealers to sell it for $600 and not $1000.

The dealers CAN NOT sell it for $600. Nobody but MF, anyway. Dealer cost runs anywhere from $500-$650 on an SL3. I paid almost $400 for mine, and that was the actual manufacturing cost. I'm sorry, I just don't get why anyone thinks there's anything wrong with the current import neckthrus. For $800 or so, you get a f**king NECKTHRU, made from some GOOD wood, with SEYMOUR DUNCANS and good hardware. What can you get from Ibanez for $800? A bolt-on asswood guitar with Ibanez pickups.

[hippietim]

Re: Expanding the line

Originally posted by Black Mariah:
There's no sense competing for that super-low-end market because that's strictly the realm of dips**ts that want to play guitar today, but do something completely different next week.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wrong. The thing that I see over and over and over again is people buying Squiers and Epiphones and "graduating" to Fenders and Gibsons. Or with Ibanez it's RG to JEM or something. Heck, if you're a Tom Delonge fan you can even graduate from Squier to Fender in the signature model series. Epi-Gibson does this too. Heck, even PRS has an artist model graduation path (albeit more expensive).

Those dips**ts are people that either don't have the money and want to give it a shot or don't know if they (or their kid) will take it seriously so they don't want to spend a lot of money. Not making a product available to them will make Jackson seem less approachable at "graduation" time.

I was at GC today and they have a Squier/Fender Strat and Epi/Gibson Les Paul at darn near every hundred dollar increment from $129 on up to many thousands. That's pretty cool. (side note: I played a BB King signature ES 345 and have some serious GAS for that guitar)

[Hotrodder]

Re: Expanding the line

[quote]Originally posted by hippietim:

I was at GC today and they have a Squier/Fender Strat and Epi/Gibson Les Paul at darn near every hundred dollar increment from $129 on up to many thousands.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">IMHO that's one place Jackson REALLY missed the boat.

A young player starts with a crappy $200 Squire/Epi and eventually moves up to a Fender/Gibson. For the most part they know their Squire's and Epiphones are crap and dream of the day they can get a Fender or Gibson.. The good guitars.

If their first impression of Jackson as a brand is a crappy guitar, it seems to me it will set their opinion of the whole Jackson line. How much do you want to bet that the young players who think Jacksons are crap got that idea from playing some js20? ( BTW I'm not saying the js20 is not a good guitar for it's price range)

Bring back the Charvettes! And even better make Jackson's USA Guitars ONLY, and use the Charvel name for high quality imports.

It's all in the marketing

[ApeDosMil]

Re: Expanding the line

i love jackson cuz they give a metal vibe..

i'd buy a telecaster if it had a jackson type neck, cuz there so fast and nice.

I like what Jackson makes, there always eye catchers, and have nice necks.

ever hear "jack of all trades, master of none?"

i think thats what would happen if jackson went to different styles

[Black Mask]

Re: Expanding the line

Originally posted by Black Mariah:
You have a choice. You either make things that appeal to the current players (Les Pauls, PRS's, etc.) or you do the same boring-ass shred crap that's been done for the past 25 years.

Exactly how would building something similar to a PRS 'cheapen' the Jackson name? Like the various telecasters, explorers, Les Pauls, and strat bodies (along with other shapes I'm sure I'm forgetting) weren't ripoffs.

Don't even think about trying the "It's just stupid nu-metal kids that buy that crap" speech either. That's what you want, dammit! I'm sorry, but middle-aged metalheads going throug their midlife crisis with large pocketbook in hand can't pay the bills forever. Face it, that's the average Jackson buyer. Don't believe me? At the Arlington guitar show a few weeks ago I worked the Easton Guitars booth with Kevin and over the weekend there were MAYBE 10 people under the age of 30 that even stopped to look. All the buyers were easily 40+. We're talking about a LARGE guitar show, that easily represents a big enough gathering of guitarists to draw statistics from, and there were MAYBE 10 people under 30 that showed interest in Jacksons.

Jackson just doesn't offer anything that appeals to players NOW. And no, you don't count. Nobody here does, including me. We know what Jackson has. We already play them. But to the guys that have been listening to Korn for half their life, that really like System of a Down and Disturbed, there is nothing for them in the Jackson world.

You may laugh at them, but keep in mind that for the past 15 years people have been laughing at Jackson/Charvel. "Yeah, those are all 80's guitars." was something I overheard at that show. You don't see people calling Fenders 50's guitars, or Gibsons 70's guitars, but Jacksons are 80's guitars and that has to change, whether anyone here likes it or not.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">RIGHT! Ok, maybe calling this thread "Expanding the Line" is a misnomer. Maybe not only should the line be expanded, but also more aggressively marketed. The point is... kids aren't playing Jacksons and they should be! It's the truth and that was pretty much what I was thinking when I started this thread.

A lot of people act like Jacksons are too high and mighty for younger players who play newer music. But if the company were to think like that, it would evaporate off the face of the earth as soon as YOU people (forty-somethings) got too old to play.

No one picks up a Les Paul and thinks "This is for fifties music" they think of the generations of people who have come to Gibson for awesome, quality guitars. People however DO look at Jackson and think "This is an eighties guitar" because they have nothing else in their minds that they can reference it to.

People look at PRS and believe it to be a fad that will go away with the current generation of nu-metal and nu-rock, but as long as PRS puts guitars in the NEXT generations hands, they'll be ok. You have to kiss a little ass and appeal to the masses if you want to have your guitars last. Saying "Making FAD guitars won't work! You can't follow trends!" You have to appeal to this generation... and the next... and the generation after that if you want your guitars to endure. It's bad to ***** yourself out, but if you're TOO elitist, you'll wind up with a core demographic of fat old men.

[ApeDosMil]

Re: Expanding the line

im 18 [img]graemlins/baby.gif[/img] and i love jacksons [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

i guess im different [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]