Expanding the line

[little0x]

Re: Expanding the line

They cant be doing that bad...Im 15 and know acouple kids around here that are playing Jackson. Also, My friend just ordered a Custom shop. So they must have some market? (a lot I think) And he doesnt at all fall into the shred stereotype...


Ox

[Newc]

Re: Expanding the line

Does he play Gnu-Metal? [img]graemlins/poke.gif[/img]
Ah well, a sale's a sale [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Newc

[hippietim]

Re: Expanding the line

Let's face it guys, when any of these companies diverge from whatever they "do" it isn't typically well received. All of the guitar companies delve into other designs and configs but they are almost always in relation to a fad and die quickly. Look at the junk Fender put out in response to pointy guitars. Look at the dorky crap Gibson created to be more metal in the 80's. All of those things get kicked around and laughed at now. And for the most part it's with good reason, most of that stuff was crap.

Fender makes Strats and Teles. Gibson makes Les Pauls, SGs, and some sweet hollow bodies. On average and dollar for dollar, nobody does what they do better than them. Sure there is GMW, PRS, Grosh, Carvin, etc. doing a spin on those things, but none of them nail it across the board with the diverse and accessible product line in that niche. Same goes for Gretsch - they have like 2 kinds of guitars that they know how to do and they do them extremely well. Same goes for Jackson - they do a small set of things well end to end.

While a handful of folks here might buy a Les Paul or Strat or 335 or whatever from Jackson, most people won't. Just like nobody wanted to buy a pointy guitar from Gibson or Fender.

[1trussell]

Re: Expanding the line

MAPLE FRETBOARDS!

[jade]

Re: Expanding the line

Originally posted by Travis:
MAPLE FRETBOARDS!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That would be nice.

[slayer]

Re: Expanding the line

NEWC, I respect your opinion, but if Jackson USA guitars start using fake MOP inlays dude, I am done buying USA Jacksons. Not only do I love the playability of USA Jacksons, I love the high end asthetics, such as real MOP, so you get a metal monster with a nice touch of quality class. Gibson and Ibanhad rips people off by skimping on these top end asthetics, so I won`t buy them, but again I respect people who buy them, play them and love them, it`s all cool. The thing I love about Jackson USA guitars is the reason I also play Carvin USA and Hamer USA, great guitars, quality, and asthetics at a fair price. REAL MOP for me please, keep the fake stuff on the Japanese models, which I also love, but the price is right and they have quality [img]graemlins/headbang.gif[/img] Jack.

[ November 21, 2003, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: slayer ]

[Black Mask]

Re: Expanding the line

Thanks for your opinions.

[Black Mariah]

Re: Expanding the line

You want change, but you don't want change. You want new buyers, but not at the 'expense' of making things everyone else does... MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MIND!

You have a choice. You either make things that appeal to the current players (Les Pauls, PRS's, etc.) or you do the same boring-ass shred crap that's been done for the past 25 years. What little in-between there is has been tried, and it failed. Look at the JJ! Nobody plays those damn things, despite the fact that they're better than any Les Paul Junior I've had my hands on (I've played a few. I like the shape). "Ugh.. I don't like the logo..." What was your excuse when they had the regular Jackson logo, like they did for several years? If you're not a Les Paul kind of guy, that's one thing. But completely ignoring a guitar because of the LOGO?

The Jazz'R is NOT a good guitar to build on top of. The body is too big to appeal to LP players, which is who you'd be trying to attract. A JJ with an arched top exists, but nobody knows or cares.

Exactly how would building something similar to a PRS 'cheapen' the Jackson name? Like the various telecasters, explorers, Les Pauls, and strat bodies (along with other shapes I'm sure I'm forgetting) weren't ripoffs.

Don't even think about trying the "It's just stupid nu-metal kids that buy that crap" speech either. That's what you want, dammit! I'm sorry, but middle-aged metalheads going throug their midlife crisis with large pocketbook in hand can't pay the bills forever. Face it, that's the average Jackson buyer. Don't believe me? At the Arlington guitar show a few weeks ago I worked the Easton Guitars booth with Kevin and over the weekend there were MAYBE 10 people under the age of 30 that even stopped to look. All the buyers were easily 40+. We're talking about a LARGE guitar show, that easily represents a big enough gathering of guitarists to draw statistics from, and there were MAYBE 10 people under 30 that showed interest in Jacksons.

Jackson just doesn't offer anything that appeals to players NOW. And no, you don't count. Nobody here does, including me. We know what Jackson has. We already play them. But to the guys that have been listening to Korn for half their life, that really like System of a Down and Disturbed, there is nothing for them in the Jackson world.

You may laugh at them, but keep in mind that for the past 15 years people have been laughing at Jackson/Charvel. "Yeah, those are all 80's guitars." was something I overheard at that show. You don't see people calling Fenders 50's guitars, or Gibsons 70's guitars, but Jacksons are 80's guitars and that has to change, whether anyone here likes it or not.

[Sunbane]

Re: Expanding the line

Even though purebred metal isn't the biggest thing on the planet anymore, I think changing the direction of the entire Jackson line would be a mistake.

FMIC bought Jackson because of its connection to metal (the press release stated this in pretty clear words IIRC). This is a market Fender hasn't been succeful in penetrating with their own products, so I think it's likely that they'd want to keep Jackson on the "metal" side of things.

I'm sure metal will have another comeback, as well as the "traditional" Jackson shapes. Over here in Europe, the metal scene is still being infused with new blood (although not to the same degree as it used to).

Some big endorsers would help keep the brand competitive though. Zakk is selling loads of LPs for Gibson/Epiphone (pretty much nobody remembers Slash anymore). Korn and Meshuggah are selling 7-stringers for Ibanez. There were quite a few young players who picked up a Jackson after seeing Children of Bodom (before they switched to ESP).

There's nothing stopping Jackson from making models that appeal to the new soft styles of poppish metal (such as Evanescence). I personally think the SLS and the KV2T are steps in the right direction, but I think streamlining the entire line would probably drive even more people over to ESP and BC Rich.

'bane

[Toby]

Re: Expanding the line

Originally posted by Black Mask:
I don't mean to offend to anyone and I don't want anyone to think I'm bashing Jackson, but do you think it would help the company if they expanded their line and became more diverse?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I came to Charvel/Jackson in the early eighties. The early San Dimas Charvel models is my personal identification to Charvel/Jackson. Then they built the models I still like the best, the USA Charvel Strat and the USA Charvel Star. This is what Charvel/Jackson really is for me. I am speaking not only for me saying they should return their originals which made the company big.
Since grover left the company, they got more and more away from what Charvel/Jackson really is. I don't see a need for more diversification in new body styles.
Understanding what Charvel/Jackson is, is understanding Grovers philosphie building the best guitars, built to custom order to the players needs. The mission of Charvel/Jackson is not to build mass guitars for the masses. Not everybody deserves to play a Charvel/Jackson.

Originally posted by Newc:
Agreed, however, at what point does Jackson start to become "yet another" in the marketplace?
The main cosmetic differences between Jackson and "those others" is the trademark pointy headstock and sharkfin inlays.
Ibanez did a stretch of RGs with 'sharktooth' inlays, which were clearly derivative of Jackson's inlays, and ESPee makes practically nothing BUT Jackson copies (Dinkys and Soloists as their main models).
Jackson has a wide enough range of 'non-Jacksonesque' models like the SLS with its 3x3 headstock, as well as the KV2T (same head), but it does appear the Rhoads, King V, and Warrior models are selling comfortably. Kellys have kinda dropped off, as I see more of them on Ebay than the other models.

I would like to see more diversity within the existing lines, and I'd like for that diversity to NOT be primarily aimed at a dwindling niche market. That means no more single-hum models. More pickups means more tonal diversity. Adherence to history and tradition is NOT the foundation Jackson was built on; it's taking the risk. Risking the loss of "the old guard" is what Jackson was built on. So what if the die-hards were apalled to see Jackson abandon the dwindling Metal market? That risk is what Grover started the brand on. Yes, by the same token, Jackson started off with the most influential Metal guitarist of all time, and continued into Glory providing the guitar of choice for the most popular (and longest-lasting) Metal players - from Anthrax to Slayer to Megadeth to RATT and Iron Maiden, but that is still not the risk that Grover took when he decided to put his own name on Randy's guitar instead of Charvel.

As for my personal suggestions for diversifying the current models:

-Maple fretboards. Dots, fins, flames, or whatever. Plastic inlays are fine with me - it saves me money, which is important.
-A better flame pattern for tops. Seriously, of all the companies making flametop imports, Jackson's flame pattern sucks. It's far too thin and dull. Photo-flame is out of the question. I want to see real flame, and real quilt, not a picture of it. Unless you find a way to make those photo-tops dance like real wood, then you've got something, but otherwise, they're lame and I personally feel that hurts sales.
-Hardtails instead of stringthrough for Soloists and Dinkys and Vs. The RR stringthrough only works if you've got the v-plate to go with it - there HAS to be something behind the bridge or else it looks like you were trying to make a violin. It's not a violin, it's an electric guitar - they are not to be confused. Naked strings coming out of wood does not look "cleaner", it looks like someone forgot something, or had no imagination. If you can come up with an eye-catching plate to put back there, fine, but a v-plate won't work on a Strat-style body. It'd look great on a King V - Gibson, Hamer, and Dean all understand this, why Jackson doesn't get it is beyond me.
Newc

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I fully agree.

Charvel/Jackson has a lot of endorsers. But imho, nobody of the current endorsers is really a great guitar player. Really great guitarists played C/J in the eighties - Gary Moore, Steve Vai, Randy Rhoads, Dave Murray etc - and then C/J lost them to other manufacturers because of the Japanese paid the C/J endorsers for changing. Charvel/Jackson should get back their really great endorsers and aquire more real guitar virtuosos like Ritchie Blackmore, Yngwie, etc.

[Newc]

Re: Expanding the line

I fail to see how getting back the old users from the 80s (who are absolute "do-nothings" right now) will help to do anything but solidify the image of Jackson as an 80's Guitar Company. Who's on the cover of this month's Guitar World? Yeah there's a retro issue of GFTPM with EVH and all those 80's heroes, but seriously, who's gonna be on the cover next month - Korn? Wes Borland's due for a return to the limelight, as are Disturbed (with a new singer?), and whoever else has been touring for the last year or two.
Jackson has to get gear into the hands of the bands playing the MAJOR showcase gigs like the Vans Warped Tour, Douche-a-palooza, and crap like that - not the "Makeup and Hairspray Revival" tours that 90% of the guitar-buying public laughs at. We laugh at losers wearing 2 shirts, knit hats, baggy shorts and flopping around on the guitar, but they're advertising guitars, and they should be advertising Jackson guitars. So what if it's just a trend? So was Poison, Warrant, Enuff Znuff, Extreme, Racer X, and Yngwie. They came, they went; Bye bye.
Music is cyclical, of course - notice the old-style Coca-Cola decor coming back into fashion? You can get 50's-style Soda Shop furniture ensembles at WalMart, not to mention the slew of accessories to go with it (from bath towels to bed sheets to blowjobs) - guess what the next "In" sound is gonna be? A blend of Rockabilly and Pop. Yep, you might see Brian Setzer one last time before he keels over [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
He'll be doing a duet with some baby-faced Producer's project and mimicking Elvis and Buddy Holly to sell records and guitars to kids.

After that, punk's gonna get big (Ramones-type punk will hit higher, because it's one gain-setting above Rockabilly, with Sex Pistols punk a close second because it's closer to angst-ridden noise). After that, it's gonna get into Punk Metal - punks that play solos. Heavy Metal might return, especially with the returning threat of global thermonuclear war, but it won't be riff-laden like Sabbath or Iron Maiden, it'll have some Techno synth crap.
Rap is already passing out and many rappers are turning back to R&B, and finding a more stable market.
Kids being angry at nothing is losing market value because no one gives a sh!t how tough some half-white kid in a housing project has it - "Everybody's got problems, why should I listen to yours?"

If that squid from Linkin Park still has a gig in January, he needs a Jackson instead of a PRS. If Wes Borland still draws a crowd, he needs a DR7. If somebody's playing a guitar in a movie or on a TV show (isn't there supposed to be an 80's Retro show like 'That 70's Show'?) they need to be using ONLY Jackson and or Charvels, not Epiphone, ESPee, or Ibenhad.

Jackson makes one model that can compete effectively in today's music markets:
The NASL:


It doesn't look like a typical Soloist, it's mahogany, SuperLight (thin), has a flamed top (quilted would look better), and has all the features, tone, and playability that "modern" and "current" trend-happy spenders need. It is available in stopbar/tunamatic or Floyded versions, though a standard hardtail bridge would probably go over more than a stopbar (always looks odd on a Strat).
It's got MOP and Abalone inlays, comes in ebony or rosewood boarded models, and features USA Duncans.
If Jackson brought this model Stateside, it'd be a best-seller.
It doesn't have to be a USA Select - make it a Pro or MG model first.

Newc

[Black Mariah]

Re: Expanding the line

The mission of Charvel/Jackson is not to build mass guitars for the masses. Not everybody deserves to play a Charvel/Jackson.

[img]graemlins/bs.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bs.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bs.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bs.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bs.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bs.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bs.gif[/img]

I need a few more BS gremlins, but that's good for a start.

Not everyone DESERVES to play a J/C? BULL F**KING S**T! They're not a motherf**king badge of honor. They are not a goddamned prize to hang on a f**king shelf. THEY'RE GUITARS. The people that deserve to play them are whoever can pay the cost of entry. The people that deserve to play them are whoever the f**k wants to.

Charvel/Jackson should get back their really great endorsers and aquire more real guitar virtuosos like Ritchie Blackmore, Yngwie, etc.

Yeah, let's get every old bastard nobody gives a s**t about. That'll sell guitars nicely. How do you propose they get Blackmore and Malmsteen anyway, seeing as how they are both avowed Fender Strat players?

I'm sick of hearing about how J/C doesn't have the same "Give the player what they want." attitude they had in their earliest days. WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK THE CUSTOM SHOP IS? With VERY few exceptions, most due to trademark issues, you can have them build any damn thing you want. How is this different than what they did 25 years ago? If they just stopped building imports and the USA Select series, would that make you happy? Of course not. You know why? Because EVERYTHING is different, because EVERYONE is different. Things change, get the f**k over it.

It's easy enough to shoot me down. To come back with a "Well, I've been playing them longer than YOU'VE BEEN ALIVE, so shut up and go back to playing Korn." Well, blow me. It's easy to talk about what J/C means and how they sould go back to the old days when you don't work for them. I saw what it was like in the last year under AMIC. They couldn't do a f**king thing for fear of losing their ass. All of those chances that never panned out (Surfcaster, Jazz'R), all of those models that never took off (Kelly Star), all of that s**t adds up and at the end of the day, unless you have a S**TLOAD of money behind you, you're screwed. I didn't work there for very long, but I worked there for long enough to gather that big-ticket customs simply don't pay the bills for a company the size of J/C anymore. Places like Robin, Anderson, etc. can get away with it because they're fairly small. Jackson can't. It's evolve or die, and they have done all they can to survive.

If I've pissed anyone off... good. It seems like we only get good discussions going on here when someone's pissed.

[img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img]

[ozzuk1]

Re: Expanding the line

it seems to me jackson seem to be doing quite well, they have very god guitars, and as part of fender they don't need to make other more versitile instruments.

as has been said before they cover a certain area that Fender don't, so there is no need for them to.

but they are doing a good job, as whenever i see jacksons they sell in a few weeks, iv'e seen a few ibanez's in mmy local jackson dealer there for months!

[spencer4hire]

Re: Expanding the line

Build the F'n NASL for the US market already!!
I am tired of seeing nothing but PRS being used.
Jackson's comparable would kick their A**!

[Hotrodder]

Re: Expanding the line

Man this thread is nothing but a load of BS. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Jackson's ability to sell guitars has nothing to do with the types/shapes of guitars they are making. Look at the hot selling Fender Tom Delong<sp?> Strat. It's pretty much a SD Charvel with a pickguard. ESP is doing pretty well selling Jackson clones. BC Rich is selling tons of guitars that have more points than Jackson ever had. Peavy even reintroduced the Vandenburg, why would they do that if super strats are just one of those silly hairspray guitars?

The only thing that will improve the Jackson mindshare is spending a buttload of $$$$ in marketing. And to tell the truth I think Fender is just the company to do that.