Expanding the line

[ApeDosMil]

Re: Expanding the line

my friend who plays bass is in a REALLY crappy punk band, guess what kind of guitars they had?

squiers [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

they sounded like crap, but i guess thats ok since all they do is strum.

Kids either go for the Low end Fender strat like design, or the low end Epi les paul type guitar.

[RP]

Re: Expanding the line

That is a problem with expanding the low-end while still carrying the Jackson name. It can dillute the value of the brand at the high end. There's a reason Toyota didn't call their luxury line by the Toyota name in the U.S. They knew that since they were an import brand known for economy and the like, very few people would pay $60,000 for a high-end Toyota no matter how nice it was.

So, they came up with a different brand, and Lexus has been quite successful (I know, Acura did it first, but they didn't do it as well as Lexus did).

If Jackson becomes known to new players as the junky $200 guitar company, there's a risk that fewer people will be interested in buying a $2,000 USA model.

That's not to say the cheap guitars shouldn't be made as well as possible, but when I pick up an Epiphone, I'm not expecting it to be the same quality as a Gibson. But at the same time, the value of a Gibson is not lowered in my mind at all whatever the quality of the Epiphone.

When I was a teenager (in the '80s), having a Jackson was something special. I loved my Charvels, but I knew it just wasn't the same as a real Jackson. And when I finally got a Jackson USA from the custom shop, I found out I was right. As good as the model series was, they weren't Jacksons (and the model series was not altogether the low-end of the market. They were still relatively expensive compared to Squires and the like).

So while I agree that having a good low-end product at a good price is a good idea, putting the Jackson logo on the headstock may well backfire for the brand (heck, it may well be that the Jackson brand is already dilluted from the low-end guitars they've already put out).

Part of having a nice guitar is lording it over your friends. If they can walk down to the store and buy a $200 Jackson P.O.S., it makes it harder to lord your USA model over them. When my buddy had a Squire, I could still easily make fun of him while still holding Fenders themselves in higher regard.

[EVHwannabe]

Re: Expanding the line

Any way they go, they need to continue to produce high quality product. But in terms of selling more product, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that their sales numbers (units or $s) won't go up much unless they land a couple of big name players. Heck, if Randy, EVH, and others hadn't played 'em back in the day, none of us would probably be on this board right now. Granted, they may not have been officially endorsing them, but that's how the brand received recognition to the market. Ads in Guitar Player or Guitar World will keep the status quo, and if that's what they want, fine. However they will not significantly change things without a couple of big name players. Why does Nike pay Jordan, James, etc. a go-zillion dollars? Because it sells a go-zillion shoes. Same with guitars, same with amps, same with most (not all) products. It's basic sales and marketing. You can argue about whether you would prefer the brand to stay limited and somewhat "elite", vs. having a significantly larger number of players playing them. But it's silly to argue how to get there - that's fairly basic sales, marketing, and economics. Sticking with the strategy of wanting people to choose J/C because they are the best product will not increase the numbers. And that's okay, if that's what you want.

[RacerX]

Re: Expanding the line

So what would we call the "entry-level" Jackson?
Gibson:Epiphone
Jackson: ?

[Hotrodder]

Re: Expanding the line

Charvette

[holycross1]

Re: Expanding the line

I say put a import Charvel headstock on the JS series and put Charvel on them with the series being called JR series. It would denote the idea of growing into higher end models as they grow.
Plus those streight thru headstocks will hold their tuning better with those cheaper fulcrum tremolo's that they will use, less binding at the nut.
Plus that headstock on the new charvel line will build more apeal with the kids. Fender won't have to use a strat head on that line to satisfy those pushing for a return to them. Since they will understand at that prise range.
This seams to be the only way to me.
I beleive the strat head should be on USA Charvels only anyway since thats where they were made to begin with.
The jackson line should remain something that a guitar player should work up to.
Take the new KV2T for instance. Make a stripped down version with dot inlays, no maple top options and maybe a choice of 10 colors to include 3 or 4 transparent colors. Keep them made in the USA and price them to be the same as those gibson V's that sell for $600 to $700 new.
You know the ones. This would make an entry level for USA models, although the number of models should be limited to maybe 4 models.
I really do think alot about the future of this great company. I want them to grow into a much larger share of the market, because the better they do the better they can inovate and serve the guitar hungary masses that can,t get enough of a new idea. Stagnation is what hurt Jackson and Charvel, not the 80's.

[hippietim]

Re: Expanding the line

There are a handful of buckets here.

1) sub $200 guitars - bottom of the barrel Squiers and Epiphones - Gretsch has the Synchromatic line - others have them as well

2) $250-500 guitars that look really good but typically blow. These are the Agiles, low-end Samicks, Essex, Eastwood, Jay Turser, etc.

3) $250-500 guitars from more respectable names - high-end Squiers (like the Showmaster neck through) and Epiphones (like some of their nicer Les Pauls). This is also where the low-end Fenders (Mexican made) and Gibsons (think faded series) are.

4) $500-800 guitars that have the appointments of much spendier guitars but are substantially better than those in #2. This would be the Schecters, Fender Japan, Japanese Jacksons, Korean made neck-through Fenders, Peavey EVH, PRS SE guitars, etc.

5) $800-1500 - Now you are talking about stock USA Fenders, Gibsons, Jacksons, PRS, etc. or really top notch imports like the high-end Gretsch's.

6) $1500 and up - this is the boutique and custom shop camp. Fender, Gibson, Jackson, PRS, etc. These are usually tweaked versions of stuff in #5.

Jackson is partaking in most of these buckets.

It's not that they lack products where they need them other than a spin-off line like Squier/Epi/OLP or something. That's probably a good idea but not the fundamental problem.

So the thing that has been called by several people is the problem. Jackson doesn't have any current artists or guitar legends signed up. They hardly have any artist models. I think Scott Ian is great but Anthrax isn't exactly "in" and Scott Ian is not a name like Jeff Beck. Same for Phil Collen. Randy Rhoads is it for Jackson in terms of artist identity. Look at the list that Fender has (and they add/drop people every year): Blackmore, Robert Cray, John 5, Geddy, Gatton, Yngwie, Delonge, Jaco, Clapton, Muddy Waters, etc. There's lots more. Those names are either legends or current (note that Fender no longer makes the Iron Maiden signature instruments). Fender has artist models priced from the custom shop down to made in Mexico. Of course, none of this is accounting for the number of well known players that just play Fenders they bought themselves. All of the same things can be said for Gibson.

The good folks at Jackson need people to want exciting looking guitars again. I used to love to watch Headbanger's Ball years ago just to see the wild and crazy guitars people would have. These days, the most non-traditional thing you see is black Schecters.

[hippietim]

Re: Expanding the line

One more thing that would help Jackson: pick up the pace for custom shop orders. I would love to order a CS guitar but am not interested in waiting a year or more to get it. There are a lot of quality custom builders out there right now that will turn around an instrument considerably faster than Jackson. I realize that Fender and Gibson can be even slower but they are Fender and Gibson so people will wait.

[holycross1]

Re: Expanding the line

Imagine this

Charvel JR series:
JR1 1 humbucker, tremolo. $150
JR2 2 humbuckers, tremolo, $200
JR2+ reverse charvel head. $220
JR3 1 hum, 2 sin, $220
JR3+ hum, sin, hum. $250

Direct mounted the pickups
Colors:
Black (DUH!) [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
White
natural
candy red
photo flame for $20 upcharge
Sunburst
Trans blue
Trans red

What would you call the Jackson USA entry level?

SLS Standard.
dots, rosewood, mahogony (nothing extremly expensive)24 3/4 inch scale, string thru,
no binding $999 list

KVT standard
SLS headstock same featues $999

KET standard
side dots only, rosewood, Mahogony, 24 3/4 inch scale, strig thru, binding ( just to one up the cheaper explorer) $1099

Place your model here

Import Jacksons:

Limit the sharktooth inlay's to 1 per model type.
DK2
WR2
KV3
KE3
no soloist I'll explain later.
Designate a premium Import line to compete with the LTD 1000 series
standard features for the line would be binding, abolone pirahna inlay, mahogony or alder depending on model,ebony FB, flame maple option on a couple models, a beefier looking JT580 tremolo on floyd models.
Real EMG's and Duncans, even though I use neither, Straplocks to one up the others.
match the LTD price.
SLS+ would be SLSMG with 81's
RR+ neck thru
RRT+ neck thru
Fusion+ 2hum like HH
DK+ DXMG with real 81's

And to throw a bone to low end PRS and Epi's
AT+ the return of the 750XL with reverse head.
[img]graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]
ATT+ not long distance just String through
[img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

And next my reason for no sharks on soloist imports.
SLR+ ( reverse headstock neck thru 2 hum, the first one.)
SL3+ Duncan screaming demon,2 vintage rails

Keep the Sharks on USA soloist only.The binding is a great trade off.
Limit the colors to 3 per model and limit the maple caps to the SLS and AT models 3 trans colors.

Keep the MG series, X series and Pro series.

Make the SLS and Warrior 24 3/4" scale across the board along with a revanped fusion in the Pro and MG series.
Make a USA Select AT like the 750XL to kick PRS's a@@.
These changes should round out the line.

Just a thought [img]graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

[holycross1]

Re: Expanding the line

Oh ya annonce new artist endorsments that would go with the lins and models.

[Black Mariah]

Re: Expanding the line

Except for the super low-end, Jackson has guitars at every price range that are better than anything anyone else has. The problem isn't the models. The problem is people's perception of the Jackson name.

[Sephiroth]

Re: Expanding the line

No, they can't do it for $250. To do that you'd have to lower yourself to the s**tty Korean standard set by Squire. Do you REALLY want that? Think about how much damage the Indian built models have done. The first Jackson I ever played was a DX1 and it had me thoroughly convinced that Jacksons suck.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't say lower your standards. I said that neck-thru can be done cheaply, and Jackson can do a good neck-thru based on a current model in the $600 area instead of the $1000 area. Stores won't carry it? Why not? They'd probably sell more than if they continue to sell them at prices that make used USA's to be more appealing.

[Hotrodder]

Re: Expanding the line

Originally posted by hippietim:
There are a handful of buckets here.

5) $800-1500 - Now you are talking about stock USA Fenders, Gibsons, Jacksons, PRS, etc. or really top notch imports like the high-end Gretsch's.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The top of the line Gretsch's retail for well over $2,000. The White Falcon is going for $3,149.99 out the door at musicians friend right now. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/drool2.gif[/img]

[Newc]

Re: Expanding the line

I will never support the idea of making Jackson a USA-model-only. I'm sure Grover wanted that (and in fact I think I read that once) and he wanted the imports to be Charvels. Once the Model models started resembling the Jackson USA models more and more, it became logical to drop the Charvel name and just make everything a Jackson.
Two names within a company causes confusion - like Country AND Western [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Besides, you will also always have the Charvel fanatics arguing that since Charvel came first, Jackson should be the import line.

Newc

[~K~]

Re: Expanding the line

I will never support the idea of making Jackson a USA-model-only. I'm sure Grover wanted that (and in fact I think I read that once) and he wanted the imports to be Charvels

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">your dead on there ... fact is when the lines were young they were totally separate lines. Charvels were Bolt on and Jacksons were neck through. In 86 when the lines were separated charvel as an import had a line to complement every USA built Jackson and Jackson added a true bolt-on line. You want a well rounded line? ..

Charvel Stratheads/Teleheads- Bolt-on s-s-s, s-s-h,H-H etc
Charvel pointies .. Bolt on dot inlayed necks, maple options etc..etc
Jackson- Bolt on DK series maybe add other body styles, This would be where shark fin inlays come in
Jackson Neckthru- Soloists,Rhoads,Kelly etc- Dots or sharkies.. Can separate lines as done early on as Custom and Student
Jackson Sweet tones line

Bring back True hard tails and non-recessed Floyd's .. Now that is a well rounded line that to be honest can complement any style of player .. Hell I've seen old San Dimas Charvel pointies in a country/pop band so anything is possible .. I think by going back to the companies roots it creates product diversity and you do it in a manner where there is no product crossover