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**Toby** · 11-23-2003, 09:45 AM

Re: Expanding the line

What's up with you that piss me off whereas I didn't pissed off anybody?

Originally posted by Black Mariah:
The mission of Charvel/Jackson is not to build mass guitars for the masses. Not everybody deserves to play a Charvel/Jackson.

You didn't understand what I meant to say. There are many players using Charvel/Jackson copies from manufacturers like ESP/Ltd or Ibanez. Even if they know about C/J, they are flaming against C/J, saying that the C/J originals look sh**tti, and saying that their guitars are no copy of a C/J, even if their guitars are copies of that origianls which they call sh**tty. These people say that the craftmanship quality, the playablity and the sound of a low price ESP/ltd or Ibanez would surpass every USA Select or Custom shop Charvel/Jackson. These are ignorants. Imo, non-C/J players who defame C/J play what they deserve and dodn't deserve playing a C/J.

Originally posted by Black Mariah:
I'm sick of hearing about how J/C doesn't have the same "Give the player what they want." attitude they had in their earliest days.

I didn't say that. I said, giving the players what they need is the Charvel/Jackson philosophie. I never said C/J doesn't this anymore.

Originally posted by Black Mariah:
WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK THE CUSTOM SHOP IS? With VERY few exceptions, most due to trademark issues, you can have them build any damn thing you want. How is this different than what they did 25 years ago?

Of course, I know. I never said anything other. I am myself a custom shop customer.
What I meant: Other manufacturers like Fender or Gibson keep their heritage alive. Imagine Fender decide to discontinue Stratocasters, Telecasters, J- and P-Basses and to build only new models instead. Ok, Charvel/Jackson didn'n discontinued their original models which made the Charvel/Jackson name famous. The (most) early models are still available on custom order. But Charvel/Jackson does not advertise or promote these models, there is no marketing for them. It's a little like Charvel/Jackson disclaims the models that started it all and which still are demanded.
I know many guitarists saying: "Charvel/Jackson made great guitars in the eighties". They still like to have more of them but don't know that the early models are still available on custom order. Since many stores only stock non-USA models, the people see only the imports in the stores. I know many people thinking that Charvel/Jackson does not built USA models anymore.
About custom shop. The 2003 catalog is the first catalog not containing a custom shop section. What I meant to say, imo Charvel/Jackson must pay more attention to their roots, like other brands also do, to not lose existing customers.

Originally posted by Black Mariah:
If they just stopped building imports and the USA Select series, would that make you happy? Of course not. You know why? Because EVERYTHING is different, because EVERYONE is different. Things change, get the f**k over it.

I knever said that I want that.

Originally posted by Black Mariah:
It's easy enough to shoot me down. To come back with a "Well, I've been playing them longer than YOU'VE BEEN ALIVE, so shut up and go back to playing Korn." Well, blow me. It's easy to talk about what J/C means and how they sould go back to the old days when you don't work for them. I saw what it was like in the last year under AMIC. They couldn't do a f**king thing for fear of losing their ass. All of those chances that never panned out (Surfcaster, Jazz'R), all of those models that never took off (Kelly Star), all of that s**t adds up and at the end of the day, unless you have a S**TLOAD of money behind you, you're screwed. I didn't work there for very long, but I worked there for long enough to gather that big-ticket customs simply don't pay the bills for a company the size of J/C anymore. Places like Robin, Anderson, etc. can get away with it because they're fairly small. Jackson can't. It's evolve or die, and they have done all they can to survive.

Ok, agreaad. Charvel/Jackson as a wide variety product line now. Imo, with more diversification within the current model lines, they can react to nearly all current and upcoming needs. However, this NASL would be great. Even other manufacturers like ESP/Ltd or Ibanez don't have a more wide variety product line than C/J now.

**guitar geek** · 11-23-2003, 10:24 AM

Re: Expanding the line

Actually, I don't think jackson has to do mutch. The USA line has to be kept the way it is; high end guitars.

I think the import line should be beefed up: for example a SL2 import. I never encountered ppl that thought Jackson to be dumb pointy head 80s guitar, but that is maybe because Jacksons are almost out of reach for all guitarplayers (2500 euro for a basic SL2).

so if Jackson want to gain marketshare: there is a really huge market in Europe, which is dominated by Ibanez. If jackson streamlines the supplychain, the prize of Jacksons over here will be way more acceptable, especially if try to lower the prize for the imports like the SL3, RR5 etc, so they can compete with brands like Ibanez. An SL3 for somthing like EUR 800 owns all Ibanezzes in that range, especially if there will be a HH config SL import. There is where Jackson misses the boat in europe: simply unnesencary overprized on the imports (compared with the USA)

Harrald

**holycross1** · 11-23-2003, 11:01 AM

Re: Expanding the line

first off let me say that I did not say to make jackson USA only. I just beleive that sharks should be a USA signature. The DK2 has been their most successfull model so leave them on there plus 1 import KE, RR, WR. The pirahna inlay are nice and need to be worked into the tradition of the line, so really adorne the imports with MOT, and the Premium imports with abolone. If the Charvel JR series idea does't have a more rootsy vibe for those retro kids for a good beginner or stripped down workhorse than I don't know what else does.
Pointy head Charvels should be Limited runs since the pointy was to allign Then Charvel with the Jackson line. It wasn't to make Jackson look better it was to make Charvel be more cosmetically associated with the Jackson line.
So the JR series idea is in keeping with the roots as far as image goes.
I may get flamed but I'm entitled to my opinion.
We all agree that Jackson Charvel rock, we just need to get this gospel to the newbies.
As far as the 80's guitar remarks go, the guy that hazed me about my jacksons at the local store now has a small collection he keeps to himself. Plus he owned afew in the early 90's.
Seems to me the folks making fun did so out of fear of alienating the grunge rock strat player who were rebelling against the music system of the 80's. I don't hear the jokes anymore. They ask what I have now and don't mind spending enough time playing mine to the point I have to ask for them back.
Perseptions are changing and now is the time to respond to that. I have played these fine guitars for 15 years, but I refuse to let my personal model fedishes be how I judge the company as awhole. I really like what little fender has done with the company and look forward to the first full blown fender revamp of the line. Fender has been idle because they promised they would for the first year and they have kept their promise. And jackson has not moved very far yet. lets see what happens next.

**Dave L** · 11-23-2003, 02:12 PM

Re: Expanding the line

I could definitely stand a 1-2 year wait for a custom, but I would never tolerate quality-issues. Imho Jackson should never, ever compromise quality to shorten time of delivery.

But I wouldn´t mind a shorter wait if they can keep the quality topnotch, though [img]graemlins/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

**~K~** · 11-23-2003, 02:38 PM

Re: Expanding the line

But I wouldn´t mind a shorter wait if they can keep the quality topnotch, though

They actually have.. they have it down to a 4-6 month wait now. I can't comment on quality as I don't have one of the customs that was made recently. I do now that they were taking quality very seriously

**Dave L** · 11-23-2003, 02:56 PM

Re: Expanding the line

That sounds like good news to me [img]graemlins/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

**Toby** · 11-23-2003, 03:04 PM

Re: Expanding the line

Originally posted by KMaynard:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />But I wouldn´t mind a shorter wait if they can keep the quality topnotch, though

They actually have.. they have it down to a 4-6 month wait now. I can't comment on quality as I don't have one of the customs that was made recently. I do now that they were taking quality very seriously <hr /></blockquote>How did they handle it to make the wait shorter?

**~K~** · 11-23-2003, 03:07 PM

Re: Expanding the line

How did they handle it to make the wait shorter?

The best person to comment on that would be Brian McDonald. I do know that they did inventory and assigned part numbers to every part they use and make which was supposed to streamline things. I think they were supposed to get access to more or newer equipment too ...

**Newc** · 11-23-2003, 04:42 PM

Re: Expanding the line

General Opinion Question:
-Do you guys feel Jackson advertises the Custom Shop more than the production models?

Newc

**holycross1** · 11-23-2003, 05:04 PM

Re: Expanding the line

I have seen more ads with the V's than usual lately. That tends to make me feel they are advertising the past more than custom or production models. This can be good but they need to bring relavince to the presant and future
lines now. Where are the adds for the MG series or production model graphics. These are really unique in design to Jackson/Charvel.
Just a thought. [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

**Toby** · 11-23-2003, 05:07 PM

Re: Expanding the line

Originally posted by Newc:
General Opinion Question:
-Do you guys feel Jackson advertises the Custom Shop more than the production models?

Newc

No. In the current 2003 catalog, they only hav production models. It's the firts catalog not containing a custom shop section. Inside the catalog, the custom shop is not even mentioned. They should advertise the custom shop more.

**hippietim** · 11-23-2003, 05:27 PM

Re: Expanding the line

Originally posted by KMaynard:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />But I wouldn´t mind a shorter wait if they can keep the quality topnotch, though

They actually have.. they have it down to a 4-6 month wait now. I can't comment on quality as I don't have one of the customs that was made recently. I do now that they were taking quality very seriously <hr /></blockquote>Is it really down to 4-6 months? That is a lot more reasonable.

**Black Mariah** · 11-24-2003, 01:05 AM

Re: Expanding the line

Hey Toby, not all of my comments were directed directly at you, directly. Most of the stuff I said was in some way related to stuff I've heard on the board concerning this subject in the past. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

These people say that the craftmanship quality, the playablity and the sound of a low price ESP/ltd or Ibanez would surpass every USA Select or Custom shop Charvel/Jackson.

And right now on the ESP board there's someone complaining about how people on the Ibanez/Jackson/Hamer board say ESPs suck, and so on for Ibanez and everyone else. It's an opinion.

It's a little like Charvel/Jackson disclaims the models that started it all and which still are demanded.

[img]graemlins/bs.gif[/img] If people want them, they're available from the custom shop as they ALWAYS have been. The Rhoads has several import and US versions offered, and that's THE Jackson guitar. USA Charvels are set to return, so we'll see what's up with that soon.

**~K~** · 11-24-2003, 01:47 AM

Re: Expanding the line

If people want them, they're available from the custom shop as they ALWAYS have been

No offense but this statement never fails to piss me off... You are right their available at the custom shop yet up until FMIC bought Jackson they were only available with a 1 to 2 year wait, Quality issues at premium prices. Most people are talking about what they want to see on a "Select" level and pricing. Christ who wanted to pay $2k to $3k and worry about quality issues as well as lead times from AMIC ...

**Toby** · 11-24-2003, 09:16 AM

Re: Expanding the line

Here in Europe, the most of the stores here stock tons and tons of Ibanez and some ESPs/Ltds. The most of them are C/J copies. But Charvels and Jacksons are rare finds in stores. And if the stores have C/J on stock, then only the cheapest ones. When I asked for C/J, there was always the same standard answer at every store: "The current trends don't demand for guitars with Floyd Rose. Because of this we don't store C/J". I don't think that's the real reason, even since the same stores stock tons and tons of Ibanez, and most of them are equipped with a FR copy. And also many of the ESPs in stores have FR.
Maybe the dealers have better profits on Ibanez and ESP than on C/J.
Here in Switzerland, I know only one store - a C/J specialist - having C/J USA Selects and also some custom shop specials on stock.

When I see European MTV or other Europan music TV stations, many guitar sightings are Ibanez or ESP. The only C/J sigting on TV I noticed the last months is Evanescence.
Recently I was on a metal festival. All the bands only played ESP/Ltd (Jackson Dinky copies).
At least here in Europe, Ibanez and ESP/Ltd have much more public appearance than C/J. The kids see the guitarist on TV and on concerts playing Ibanez and ESP/Ltd, then they run to the next store and buy Ibanez or ESP/Ltd.
I noticed in other, not related to a specific manufacturer, forums, the people asking for and talking about Ibanez or ESP/Ltd frequently, but C/J is only rarely named.

An upcoming trend here in Europe are Russian custom shops. The Russians build custom orders for less than $ 1000.-. I noticed many people ordering "Ibanez copies" or "ESP/Ltd. copies" (they don't know that Ibanez and ESP/Ltd. also are copies only and that Charvels and Jacksons are the originals).

Here in Europe we have many guitar magazines. Most of them are floated with test reports of Ibanez and ESP/Ltd. Every month, each magazine has one (or almost more) test report of Ibanez and ESP/Ltd. When I trace the back issues of these European guitar magazines, test reports of C/J are very very rare. I found only one magazine having a report on the SL1 and one with PC1 and PC3. I didn't find a magazine with a report of DK1 or RR1. Ibanez has a wirde variety of models, but less diversification than C/J. The most Ibanez models differs not much from other Ibanez models, but the magazines test each one. If Ibanez only changes the inlays from dots to sharkfins, or if they introduce a new color, they create a new model name for the in fact already existing model, and the magazines test them again.

Charvel/Jackson has more versatile product lines than Ibanez and ESP/Ltd. But imo, Ibanez and ESP/Ltd. have better and more aggressive marketing than C/J.
Charvel/Jackson builds the greatest guitars, but imo they must push the marketing the bring the greatest guitars to the people.

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