just some observations

[Sean Phillips]

As I have read through many posts in here i see that people get upset with what they call Jackson copies made by other companies such as ESP.

From what i observe Jackson only has 3 real original designs of their own. (warrior, rhoades and kelly star). All others are variations of older existing designs. Soloists and dinkys are basically Fender Strats, the kelly is basically a Gibson explorer and the king v is a little more aggressive Gibson flying v.

Brand loyalty is great but there are only so many shapes that make great guitars out there so they will look the same in some cases and there is nothing wrong with that so what if Ibanez and ESP have guitars that resemble Jacksons it is and will be a fact of life.

And it also seems to me that there are alot of people here that want a strat style headstock on their Jackson but get mad if someone wants an ESP that looks close to a Jackson model. If you want a strat looking guitar buy a strat or quit whining about other guitar companies making a guitar that looks like a Jackson, you cant have it both ways.

Well that is my opinion and my observations.

[RacerX]

Re: just some observations

Well, I say you're talking out of your ass! [img]graemlins/evilimages/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
You list what you think are the only original body styles, yet you can't even spell Rhoads correctly. [img]graemlins/fart.gif[/img]

The Soloist is not a Strat, it's a neck-through double cutaway with a nice streamlined shape. I don't think it looks anything like a Strat!

You include the KellyStar as original, yet you say the Kelly is derivative? If you knew even a bit about Jackson/Charvel styles or history, you'd know it's basically a pointy Star body, although really it melds the Kelly with a Rhoads (on your originals list).
Your ridiculous assumption about the origin of the King V underlines your ignorance. That guitar was originally called Double Rhoads...because...gee, it was an equal-wing-length Rhoads. [img]graemlins/evilimages/icons/tongue.gif[/img]


To sum up, your post seemed designed to stir up some shit. Ibanez lover! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[Sunbane]

Re: just some observations

I must agree with Sean that the whining goes a bit overboard here sometimes. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] But I never understood what's so cool about stratheads in the first place. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

The biggest gripes I have with other big manufacturers:

ESP - Their strattish guitars look ok. The other body styles are just ugly variations of classic shapes (except the Viper, which rocks (SG on speed!)). Seems like well built guitars, although a bit expensive.
Ibanez - A total lack of pointies.
Gibson - Often undesirable neck shapes and way overpriced.

I was never into Fenders and BCR shapes look a bit odd to me. The Warlock ownz tho'. [img]graemlins/drool2.gif[/img]

'bane

[xenophobe]

Re: just some observations

In a mood to troll perhaps? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Sean Phillips]

Re: just some observations

thank you for the well thought out response.(yeah Right) If you actually read what is posted i said basically the same design i did not say they were exactly the same. But anyway get overyourself and realize that basically there are limited shapes that work well in guitar designs and the entire guitar world is NOT out to copy what in your opinion is the best guitars on the market.

I like guitars of all kinds and styles and play what works best for me and at this time it is a Jackson but if i need something else i will get it.

Get over this crap about history and get to the real point which is my dk2 has the same general shape as a fendder strat but yet you are quick to say how different they are. But other companies that produce something close to a Jackson are wannabees and unoriginal. Interesting..... You also refuse to look at the possibility that there are similarities between Jackson and anything elso out there that came before Jackson.. If it stirs up something oh well but i never said anything was an exact copy ony derived from the basic shapes that existed already my advice get over yourself.. blind loyalty to anything is assinine and so i dont live breathe and eat Jackson it does not make my point any less true as for my spelling who cares?
I believe that all guitar companies have their good and bad points and that it does not matter what you play as long as it fits you and what is what you like. To belittle someone for playing something else is childish and in some cases solidifies what people think about Jackson players which is sad really. And my one question to you is what does it matter what i like or play anyways?
My intent is not to bash or belittle anyone or any guitar company but simply to say that in the end it is all personal preference and bang for the buck that does not make one or the other right but to simply say there are only a few really good guitar body shapes out there so at some point companies will overlap enjoy your Jacksons as i do mine but realize that there is a longer history to the guitar that Jackson and the innovations made by other companies make Jackson what it is today as Jackson's innovations make other companies better as well.. In the end it all works together for the good of us the players.

[JACKSONFREAK]

Re: just some observations

Sean (if thats your real name :lol)
Many of us here on th Jackson Charvel forum
Believe that J/C's are the best or at least one of the best guitars made because of the build quality and attentoin to detail. Plus they are a part of our lives from the "Decade of Rock and Roll" when so many bands were using Jackson and or Charvel. It's not that we think Jackson is all original and they don't have influenced designs of other manufactorers but it also those design modifications that have helped to make Jackson Charvel what it is today. However the first Jackson ever made was Rhoads which was completely original idea and the brain child of Randy Rhoads.
If you want to really get picky about things why not call the Warrior or the Kelly Star modified Dean ML, or a radically modified explorer? ESP doe smake some pretty desent guitars but they are way over priced for what they are and don't even have real duncan pickups in them for the money spent. Why buy a korean built ESP with less expensive parts and craftsmanship for 1200.00 when I can put an extra 300 bucks to that 1200.00 and get a USA built JAckson with a real Floyd Rose and real Duncans.
Companies have been sewed over patented desings such as the Les Paul and its name. So other companies have to make modifications to thier designs to make them acceptable to the other companies with said patent. (IE Strat head stock)
There are only so many functional, easy to play and physically apealing guitar designs available.
Look at othe companies like G&L, Schecter, and Tom Anderson. All of which have been variations of Strat body shapes,Tele body shapes, and What ever else that are similar. Hell G&L are more Fender than a Fender is but they cant hhave the Fender name on them due to law suits. Look at the ESP Viper what is it: why its an SG. The Eclipse is a Les Paul. What bodie shapes made ESP popular? The shapes that work. The streamlined Strat body The Tele body, and the Explorer body shapes. Why because they work and are popular designs especailly with bands like Metallica using the Strat and explorer shapes, and Keef Richards using the Tele shape. ESP has taken designes from everybody from Fender to Jackson and back again to make thier guitars and so has Jackson to a point. Every company has at one point. Hell for that matter we could say Gibson copied Rickenbacher for the semi hollow body guitars cuz they came up with it first. What's the point of arguing over semantics of who copied who first. Just play what you want and remember what this forum is before you start spewing off about Jackson Charvel in a negative way. Also most of us here do own and play many other brands of guitars beside Jacksons and Charvels. Such as Gibson,Fender, Dean,Schecter, Kramer, Esp, and even Ibanez. Just get over it and play what you want and don't diss us for wantiong to play and apreciate our Jacksons as the best guitars made.
Gil
Keeper of the faith.

[Toby]

Re: just some observations

Agreed, the original Stratocaster design is from Fender and not from Charvel/Jackson. But Charvel hot rodded it to the Superstrat. Charvel/Jackson created some own designs, like the Star, Rhoads, Warrior, Death Angel etc - and some designs like Soloist, Kelly or KingV based on other traditional designs.
ESP are just Charvel/Jackson imitations from far east. They copied not just only both the traditional body styles and the C/J derivations, they also copied the ideas like custom graphics, conceptions, innovations and philosophy like the custom shop from Charvel/Jackson. Whereas some Ibanez models are inspired by Charvel/Jackson with intelligence and have their own identity, ESP imo just copies without any intelligence and ESP instruments have no own identity.
One of my Charvel/Jackson dealers also has some of the expensive ESPs on stock. I tried some of them, but I don't like their playability.
Here in Europe, both USA Charvels/Jacksons and Japanese ESPs are imports. Whereas the USA Charvels/Jacksons are great high end instruments at expensive but reasonable prices, here in Europe the Japanese imitations from ESP still cost more than USA Charvels/Jacksons.

[straycat]

Re: just some observations

Oh and Sean you SHOULD CARE about your spelling.I agree you can piss and moan about anything you wish but at least spell correctly.Use your spell checker. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[xenophobe]

Re: just some observations

Wow Sean, you sure needed to let off a bunch of unnecessary steam.... Your boyfriend fail to give you your regular stiffie in the bum? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] Just an observation. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

When is the last time someone's even bashed another one of these companies on here anyways?

[img]graemlins/brow.gif[/img]

[Newc]

Re: just some observations

These are the facts:

-Fender NEVER put out a production-model non-pickguarded Strat before Charvel made them.

-The King V (whether it is a Double-Rhoads or Mustaine-sized) may be derivative of the Gibson V in basic shape (i.e. outline), Gibson, like Fender, NEVER put out a production-model non-pickguarded V until Jackson did.

-ESP's very first PRODUCTION-MODEL neckthroughs were IDENTICAL COPIES of the Jackson Soloist. I was there, I played one - it was basically a Jackson Soloist with an ESP logo; same headstock, same neck heel, same body size and shape.

Now, the Charvel SuperStrats were predominantly solid-topped, which Fender was not doing. Yes, the Charvels were bolt-ons with 21 and 22 frets, vintage trems, and had an identically outlined body as a Fender Strat, so one could say it was "derivative" of the Fender Strat.
ESP, however, were and still are to a large degree making near-exact copies of Jackson's patented/trademarked body designs - though they are based on the Gibson and Fender designs, they do qualify for their own patent and trademark/copyright, therefore they are original designs.

Ibanez are the bandwagon kings - before Charvel and Jackson got big, they were copying Gibson and Fender models to the letter - until they got sued - then they switched to slightly modified copies of Gibson and Fender designs (i.e. bolt-on Les Pauls instead of set-necks, small bumps on the horns of their RoadStar Guitar models (which evolved into the RG they have today).

And speaking of the RG design, that too was originally a Charvel - Steve Vai carved down the lower horn of his Charvel Strat to a profile that is identical to the current RG models.

Face it, there's a big difference between Jackson's semi-derivative designs and ESP's blatant copying.

Newc

[skarhead]

Re: just some observations

okay , i can say for my own , but i think many of you guys will agree with me.

i chose Jackson because to their quality and attention to detail even with low cost guitar ( i'm talking about imports , as i own one by myself and i'm only planning getting a us made in a long time)
yup the quality and pricing for MIJ Jacksons is awesome , beats esp and especially ibanez .

maybe it's just me , but after searching for a good neck the only necks that suited me really good were rhoads necks from various models ( rr5 ,rr3 and finally my std) , so i just bought them.

i don't think that most of us hate or disrespect other brands : look just at the les paul thread in other guitars section .

for me i can't stand ibanez ( expect one series - sz which is really ok ) because of their tone , rather cheap construction ( broken saddles in their bridges , poor availability for replacement parts and prices of them ) not really my favourite types of wood ( basswood mainly ) don't like their superstrat look also .

about esp - i played some models in the same price range as lets say the dxmg , and they didn't felt right , the neck didn't caught my attention and the tone also .
about copying shapes- sure esp copies them , and most of them look ugly to me ( ex series bleeh ) but some look really ok and i could play them vipers ( altough i hate sg original shape i like that ) , hannemans series and a lynch kamikaze . Their reversed headstock looks really ok ( sometimes i like it more than jacksons ) , i don't know if it's true that they've copied it from Jackson , to me at least it looks like a crippled jackson hs and the end is copied from bc rich pointed.

also esp has in my opinion has some "Plastic metal" touch they sign every metal band that's becoming moderately popular ( same to ibanez ) .


as somebody said over here some months ago Jackson makes the only guitars that are good quality , and become awesome if you replace some parts ( pickups , bridges- altough i find that they work at least ok ).

about body shape originality - yup ok kelly reminds some people at an explorer , but here again it was a shape contributed by an australian player( correct me if i'm wrong ) and then due to its popularity was also attached to the production line .

imo all jackson shapes have just the touch of class , they look elegant even if wild in opposite to esp , many bc riches , and various other brands .

To belittle someone for playing something else is childish

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">- you call us childish , heh go to ESP board to see where the real "ADULTS"( yeah kirk rules,i wanna his guitar to play just like him ) .

about strathead on charvels , to me it's not important ( i like their new hs also ) , i think that for the most of the guys over here it has some sentimental thing in it.
I'm not sentimental . I didn't bought a guitar to be like my hero either - otherwise i would play a dean ml like dime or a gibson LP , i bought it plain quality. I was no fan of jackson players when i was buying a guitar , i don't like some of them and mostly i don't know them ( in opposite to the rest of the older guys here )

btw about charvel strats - the problem is that i never liked ANY fender design , and i like charvels for their looks etc.

Peace

aww shit the longest post i've ever wrote on any forum [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[~K~]

Re: just some observations

Sean,

Are you going somewhere with this entire post or are you bored and just trying to stir up shit here? If so please don't ...

I've dealt with the ESP board and it's members .. and like any other board they have some real good guys and their share of troublemakers who have come here from time to time .. it's not worth the aggravation over a guitar ...

I play Charvel/Jackson for 1 reason .....

They are the best guitars period... ..

[mudkicker]

Re: just some observations

Sean,

[mudkicker]

Re: just some observations

Sean,

I don't know which thread you maybe upset with. Yes there are some people here who have a hard on against ESP, but the majority here does not. I have played Charvels since 1986 and ESP's since 1988. I am one of the few here who takes up for ESP but only when people are spouting true BS about the guitars. No one here really cares about who invented what shape of guitar first unless someone starts spouting out a ton of BS, then the gloves come off. We all know muddy Waters invented electricity so plug in your Jackson and chill out.

[Steve]

Re: just some observations

Originally posted by Sean Phillips:
As I have read through many posts in here i see that people get upset with what they call Jackson copies made by other companies such as ESP.

From what i observe Jackson only has 3 real original designs of their own. (warrior, rhoades and kelly star). All others are variations of older existing designs. Soloists and dinkys are basically Fender Strats, the kelly is basically a Gibson explorer and the king v is a little more aggressive Gibson flying v.

Brand loyalty is great but there are only so many shapes that make great guitars out there so they will look the same in some cases and there is nothing wrong with that so what if Ibanez and ESP have guitars that resemble Jacksons it is and will be a fact of life.

And it also seems to me that there are alot of people here that want a strat style headstock on their Jackson but get mad if someone wants an ESP that looks close to a Jackson model. If you want a strat looking guitar buy a strat or quit whining about other guitar companies making a guitar that looks like a Jackson, you cant have it both ways.

Well that is my opinion and my observations.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">acually dinkys and soloists are Jacksons designs Jackson was the one who invented the super strat witch is light years better than any fender strat , please know your facts Son ! //Steve