just some observations

[Steve]

Re: just some observations

...read the history of the guitar or what ever it's called mentions the superstrat design right in there //Steve

[lerxstcat]

Re: just some observations

Originally posted by RacerX:
Well, I say you're talking out of your ass! [img]graemlins/evilimages/icons/tongue.gif[/img] ....The Soloist is not a Strat, it's a neck-through double cutaway with a nice streamlined shape. I don't think it looks anything like a Strat!

[img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ron, you're talking out your ass a bit yourself if you say the Soloist doesn't look anything like a Strat. Even Jackson
described it as having a 7/8-sized Strat style body. It's certainly a quantum leap forward in refinement, but even a non-guitarist can see the similarity between Strat, Soloist and Dinky. When you weigh in with a line like that, then your other statements are less credible.

Who cares if ESP copies Jackson styles?
They always look a little mutated compared to the Jacksons, and since they cost way more who wants to buy 'em? As
long as all the starstruck kids are buying ESPs, the prices on used Jacksons and Charvels will stay lower, and what's wrong with that - unless you're selling, that is?

[Steve]

Re: just some observations

Originally posted by Newc:
These are the facts:

-Fender NEVER put out a production-model non-pickguarded Strat before Charvel made them.

-The King V (whether it is a Double-Rhoads or Mustaine-sized) may be derivative of the Gibson V in basic shape (i.e. outline), Gibson, like Fender, NEVER put out a production-model non-pickguarded V until Jackson did.

-ESP's very first PRODUCTION-MODEL neckthroughs were IDENTICAL COPIES of the Jackson Soloist. I was there, I played one - it was basically a Jackson Soloist with an ESP logo; same headstock, same neck heel, same body size and shape.

Now, the Charvel SuperStrats were predominantly solid-topped, which Fender was not doing. Yes, the Charvels were bolt-ons with 21 and 22 frets, vintage trems, and had an identically outlined body as a Fender Strat, so one could say it was "derivative" of the Fender Strat.
ESP, however, were and still are to a large degree making near-exact copies of Jackson's patented/trademarked body designs - though they are based on the Gibson and Fender designs, they do qualify for their own patent and trademark/copyright, therefore they are original designs.

Ibanez are the bandwagon kings - before Charvel and Jackson got big, they were copying Gibson and Fender models to the letter - until they got sued - then they switched to slightly modified copies of Gibson and Fender designs (i.e. bolt-on Les Pauls instead of set-necks, small bumps on the horns of their RoadStar Guitar models (which evolved into the RG they have today).

And speaking of the RG design, that too was originally a Charvel - Steve Vai carved down the lower horn of his Charvel Strat to a profile that is identical to the current RG models.

Face it, there's a big difference between Jackson's semi-derivative designs and ESP's blatant copying.

Newc

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">good one Newc . [img]graemlins/toast.gif[/img] //Steve

[Black Mariah]

Re: just some observations

The majority here do have this stupid inferiority complex that demands anytime someone says something that's counter to J/C being totally original and the best ever they have to immediately jump up the ass of the person that said it.

The Kelly is nothing but a pointier Explorer. The Kelly Star is a pointier Charvel Star, which was an Explorer with the ass-end hacked up. The King V evolved from the Rhoads which was basically a modernizing of the Flying V (think about who designed it and what other guitars he played).

Taking a pickguard off a guitar is REALLY original, isn't it? If that's the extent of your originality... [img]graemlins/eyes.gif[/img]

Why the hell do you think Solists are described as "strat-style" guitars? The body is much smaller and it's a neckthru, but it's STILL A STRAT STYLE. That general shape is a STRAT STYLE. Take the pickguard off, make it a neckthru, add a humbucker, and it's STILL based on a body shape that Fender developed ~50 years ago.

None of this matters. If the best you can do is argue that a guitar company isn't innovative, it's time to choose a new reason to ***** . How about the fact that a STANDARD ESP neckthru costs more than most CUSTOM Jacksons? How about that Jackson consistently has a higher price/quality/performance ratio than just about any other guitars out there? These are GOOD reasons for not liking other manufacturers.

And in case none of you have noticed, all the shapes mentioned above are the ones that SELL. Some shapes make good guitars, other just do not. You either go with what works (ESP, Ibanez) or you find a niche and jack up your prices (Klein, Teuffel).

[lerxstcat]

Re: just some observations

You do have some great points there Newc, but Vai's Charvel as the basis for thr RG? Well, if VAI MODDED the lower horn, then that VAI's design, NOT Charvel's, right?

Also, let's remember that Charvel got its start making parts that were marketed as exact-fit replacement parts for Fenders. It's plain to see that they started out copying as closely as they could Fender designs, then evolved from there.

Not that there's anything wrong with that! [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Oh yeah, the "lawsuit" models? Nobody got sued; the threat was enough to get Ibanez, etc.. to change
the guitars slightly, for the US market anyway.

[ February 11, 2004, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: lerxstcat ]

[Steve]

Re: just some observations

...the reason we all [most of us] hate esp is the bloody price of em and what you get for your buck , I have played esp's and Jackson imports side by side and the real esps [not ltd's] had a good trem and good pickups , but if you bought a real floyd for your Jackson import and some good pickups the Jackson imports are light years better than the esp's and a hell of a lot cheaper ! //Steve

[Tekky]

Re: just some observations

Originally posted by Sean Phillips:
As I have read through many posts in here i see that people get upset with what they call Jackson copies made by other companies such as ESP.

From what i observe Jackson only has 3 real original designs of their own. (warrior, rhoades and kelly star). All others are variations of older existing designs. Soloists and dinkys are basically Fender Strats, the kelly is basically a Gibson explorer and the king v is a little more aggressive Gibson flying v.

Brand loyalty is great but there are only so many shapes that make great guitars out there so they will look the same in some cases and there is nothing wrong with that so what if Ibanez and ESP have guitars that resemble Jacksons it is and will be a fact of life.

And it also seems to me that there are alot of people here that want a strat style headstock on their Jackson but get mad if someone wants an ESP that looks close to a Jackson model. If you want a strat looking guitar buy a strat or quit whining about other guitar companies making a guitar that looks like a Jackson, you cant have it both ways.

Well that is my opinion and my observations.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Normally I hate the hell out of it when Ron does it, but considering the antagonistic tone of the post I'll do it...

The word is:<center>
<font size=6>R-H-O-A-D-S</font>
</center>

[mm2002]

Re: just some observations

I think this topic always gets kinda silly. I own ONLY Charvels and Jackson electrics and ONLY Alvarez acoustics. My reason?....They're what I like. Are all other guitars inferior?...hell fucking NO. It's kinda the same as the question: "What kind of music do you like?" Most people that I consider true musicians have the ability to appreciate many different types of music while at the same time having one style that's their favorite. I don't listen to rap or country and I don't buy ESPs, but do they suck? Nope.

[mm2002]

Re: just some observations

Oh and BTW, I love my Crate amps!! [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[StukaJU87]

Re: just some observations

I think this topic is a bit played out, already. Jackson is my favorite. Gibson is right behind them. Do I give a rats ass that Gibson made the 1st V? No. Do I hold it against Jackson for making Kellys and V's? Hell no. I like them and I play them. End of story. Sean, quit trying to stir up the shit pot.

[Flatpicker]

Re: just some observations

If you think about it though, there are only so many designs you can have for a guitar and still maintain good ergonomics. You need a useable thickness, some taper to account for it sitting on a leg, depending on the use of the instrument you may need 1 or 2 cutaways or no boughts if it is a V.

If you take that into account then all designs are derivitive of each other due to the limitations of the human body. Even the ESP/LTD devil girl is just an explorer with fancy molding.

I buy Jackson because I like what I get for what I spend. Simple as that. If another brand met or exceeded J/C's quality to price ratio, I'd consider them.
I mean if I want a shortscale 2 hum V or explorer I would seriously consider a Hamer. They are very good also.

[xenophobe]

Re: just some observations

Wow... some of you people are giving this TROLL way more respect than he deserves.

Only a stupid fool would come here and babble like he has. Come on, we all like other guitar companies, and even a few models from the companies we like to hate. Big deal.

This schmuck is taking you all for a ride... [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

BTW, I only own Jacksons. [img]graemlins/evilimages/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[Flatpicker]

Re: just some observations

Xenophobe,
Your right about the Troll but I figure to make some Lemonade (trollade) from the original lemon.

Plus I like to see my posts, it makes me feel important. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[tmdiamond]

Re: just some observations

Xeno is so right. Somebody obviously said something about the DK-2 he owns that left a bad taste in his mouth. I buy and own mostly Jacksons and Charvels because I think they look better than any guitar built, the workmanship is as good as any other high end guitar company, they influenced the most massive large-scale change in guitar design/function in the history of the instrument, and they have a sentimental spot in my heart.....PERIOD. I don't much care about buying other brands. Does this mean that ESP or others are not any good? NO. Does it mean that I think Jackson is the only true original? NO and I doubt anyone else here thinks that either. Let this guy stew in his angst. It only shows his insecurity about his own guitar. SO what if his Jackson isn't a USA or whtever. It's his guitar and I'm sure it's fine. Sounds to me like he's the one with the issue and he's trying to project it on everyone else.

[pro-fusion]

Re: just some observations

There are two things that get me hacked up about ESP:

1. For me, their guitars don't play as well as J/Cs--and that's the entire ESP line, from top to bottom.

2. They build the J/C designs--not as well--charge a buttload for them, and still manage to get "buzz" for doing it.

Of course, despite all of their endorsement activity and marketing push, does anybody really know if ESP outsells Jackson??? After all, Guitar Center does NOT carry ESP, so that's got to be a major blow to their U.S. marketing. I have to think that Jackson is still the bigger seller based on that factor alone, even if the Samick plant pumps out LTDs day and night.