Fender is being a bunch of lazy #@$#

[VanOsbourne]

Re: Fender is being a bunch of lazy #@$#

All right Lerx.. you still have a problem with me from the "Iraq" post? You seem to want to contradict me anyway you can. Lets see here... from your posts I'm responsible for any and all fuk ups made by a company for a product that I paid in full for? Nice. Let me also point out that by your posts its pretty easy to research build times, and is apparently common knowledge that USA selects have build times over seven months. Someone want to find that info for me? I'm too stupid.

Now for some even better deductions... One can assume from your posts that this info would also be common knowledge to THE dealer. SO I HAVE BEEN LIED TO? Well thats good buisness.

Chuck said it best.
"Name me one other industry where it's perfectly acceptd to say, "Sure, we'll take your $1000 dollars (or whatever) and you can have your widget in 3 months."
"He he...guess what...make that nine months...don't like it? Tough ****...", and people are supposed to eat it."

[lerxstcat]

Re: Fender is being a bunch of lazy #@$#

You're overreacting, VO. If you really look at our posts you'll see a lot where we agree, but you're dwelling on the Iraq thread and this one. Let me try to clarify for you.

Yes, the wait sucks. I'm sorry they're stringing you along. Besides the sympathy, though, Dinkyjacksonman and all the others posting here can tell you that there were threads on this subject, accessible through the search engine here. They griped about the USA Selects taking up to 9 months to get, before the ender buyout. Then after the buyout there was a thread where FMIC stated its goal was to get a 90-day turnaround on SA Select orders. That implied to me that they thought they knew better than Jackson how to make guitars, or knew how to make them faster at any rate. Most of the people posting on this thread were on those threads, I believe.

So no, I'm not saying it's necessarily right or fair that they quote you 3 months and then make it 10. I'm just saying it's the nature of businesses, even guitar makers, to take your money with an optimistic time quote, then string you along. Ask about GMW or any other maker and you'll find similar time frames, and find that the time they quote is about half as long as the time will actually take. You could have searched with keywords for threads, or posted a thread asking how long they really take.

It's understandable that you didn't know this before, and 'm not saying it's your "fault". That's a word you keep using, not I. I am only saying NOW YOU KNOW that's the way it is,
and if I were you I'd assume the same thing before buying anything that you have to order, as opposed to buying right there in the store.
I hope that's clear enough. Reading those threads in the past is why I'll never order a new USA Jackson, but will buy used. I don't actually have any USA Jacksons anyway at this point.

[VanOsbourne]

Re: Fender is being a bunch of lazy #@$#

What are you a fuggin lawyer?[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Can you not see where the tone of your posts sound like I "deserved it"? You may not have meant it that way, I dunno.

So.. I wanna know, if build times are common knowledge did my dealer outright lie to me? Because he seems to be shocked himself that its taking this long.

[Jack Napalm]

Re: Fender is being a bunch of lazy #@$#

I think part of the problem is you hear different times from different sources. No one really knows for certain anything and we haven't heard it from the horses mouth. It's still 'my dealer said' or I heard from someone who hear from someone how long it takes. There is a lot of mis-information out there. Take a look at the Charvel Bullseye thread where it was reported that they weren't going to ship for a long time. They now seem to be showing up in some locations. I ordered a custom shop guitar and I doubled the time I was told it would take to come in just so my hopes wouldn't be dashed. It would be nice if Jackson had a process to go through where you could get a status on your order directly from them.

[pedalGEEK]

Re: Fender is being a bunch of lazy #@$#

[ QUOTE ]
Name me one other industry where it's perfectly acceptd to say, "Sure, we'll take your $1000 dollars (or whatever) and you can have your widget in 3 months."
"He he...guess what...make that nine months...don't like it? Tough ****...", and people are supposed to eat it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay: retail wine. There is a thing called wine futures. You pay for the wine today (in full), and you take delivery approximately 2-4 years from now. That's assuming the person/company you are dealing with is/are legit.

[Tom B]

Re: Fender is being a bunch of lazy #@$#

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Name me one other industry where it's perfectly acceptd to say, "Sure, we'll take your $1000 dollars (or whatever) and you can have your widget in 3 months."
"He he...guess what...make that nine months...don't like it? Tough ****...", and people are supposed to eat it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay: retail wine. There is a thing called wine futures. You pay for the wine today (in full), and you take delivery approximately 2-4 years from now. That's assuming the person/company you are dealing with is/are legit.

[/ QUOTE ]

That looks different somehow i think. The wine has to lay around to get good. It's a wait that can't be avoided. Guitars are different, sure the waiting line can't be avoided either but if they tell you : aprox 3 months, it should be aprox 3 months. If their wait is 7 months, well then they have to say so and not otherwise. Let's just hope this is something they're dealing with because of the buy-out and that they'll sort it out soon. Everybody makes mistake i guess [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[lerxstcat]

Re: Fender is being a bunch of lazy #@$#

[ QUOTE ]
What are you a fuggin lawyer?[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Can you not see where the tone of your posts sound like I "deserved it"? You may not have meant it that way, I dunno.So.. I wanna know, if build times are common knowledge did my dealer outright lie to me? Because he seems to be shocked himself that its taking this long.

[/ QUOTE ]Sorry, I do come off that way sometimes. I don't think you deserve it at all. As for your dealer, most dealers don't stock USA Jacksons, only the imports. My own experience is that the imports come in quickly when ordered, so he may have not ordered a USA model before.Or he may have luckily ordered a model they just happened to have ready or near-ready and got a quicker delivery before. The fact is though that most stores aren't selling many USA Selects at all, compared to the number of imports they move. So it could really be a surprise to him as well. As others have said, the dealers take the heat when this happens.Would it be better to just say once bitten, twice shy?

[RP]

Re: Fender is being a bunch of lazy #@$#

[ QUOTE ]
Okay: retail wine. There is a thing called wine futures. You pay for the wine today (in full), and you take delivery approximately 2-4 years from now. That's assuming the person/company you are dealing with is/are legit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think if you buy a wine future for delivery on, let's say, July, 2005 that they can get away with delivering that wine in December, 2005.

Futures contracts usually require delivery on a certain date. If Jackson me their promised delivery times, no one would be complaining as everyone understands some waiting is going to happen (Think of the Bullseye delivery date controversy detailed in the other thread. If J/C had said those guitars would be shipping in October, they'd be praised for being so efficient and hard working and getting them out sooner).

I personally don't mind the waits in and of themselves, but it is frustrating when you're told one thing then another happens. It seems to me that if Jackson is consistently late on its estimates, then the dealers should probably make this clear when the order is placed.

Something like, "They're telling me delivery in May, but in my experience, these things usually take longer, so I wouldn't expect delivery until August or so."

For as long as Jackson (and others) have underestimated their delivery dates, you'd think the dealers would've caught on by now (the Jackson I ordered in 1988 missed it's promised delivery date by four months. So clearly this is not a new issue) and make it a point to communicate this information to their customers to prevent potential hard feelings (because things like highly inaccurate wait times can affect future orders). Some dealers may well do this. I don't know.

"Underpromise and overdeliver" should be the course of action rather than the opposite which seems to be the norm.

[lerxstcat]

Re: Fender is being a bunch of lazy #@$#

You have a point, but since you quote the problem as dating to 1988, and the company has changed hands 3 times since then, it's doubtful the policy will ever change, since they don't have to change.

I think their thinking is they would lose orders if they gave a realistic wait time, which may be true. They apparently feel that word of mouth won't spread fast enough to affect the rate of ordering, which is also apparently true, since we've been talking about this problem on this board since at least 2002 to my knowledge.

Many Jackson customers are resigned to this and the market for USA Jacksons is relatively small. The greater part of the market that IS
there is for used guitars, since we know of problems like wait times and people unhappy with warranty issues. I'd rather buy a used guitar for less than half new price, knowing if issues arise I'm on my own, AND knowing that since I'll be paying cash for repairs, I'll get timelier service. The Jackson policy regarding estimates of time is not fair, but it is reality, so best to adjust to reality rathen than be repeatedly disappointed.

[RP]

Re: Fender is being a bunch of lazy #@$#

[ QUOTE ]
The Jackson policy regarding estimates of time is not fair, but it is reality, so best to adjust to reality rathen than be repeatedly disappointed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well certainly the second time one orders, they're far less likely to believe the estimated delivery time.

The problem for Jackson is replacing those customers who never order a second guitar because of the policy of overpromising and underdelivering.

It's more expensive to attract a new customer than it is to retain a current one. At a time when Jackson is trying to expand its customer base, it's a bad to have all these problems.

Yes, there will still be a core group who will simply adjust their expectations and not change the number of guitars they'd order, but it seems to me that one of the reasons Jackson has changed hands as many times as it has is because it is a niche player with an often dwindling customer base, something that is only made worse at times when the company is overpromising and underdelivering.

[pedalGEEK]

Re: Fender is being a bunch of lazy #@$#

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay: retail wine. There is a thing called wine futures. You pay for the wine today (in full), and you take delivery approximately 2-4 years from now. That's assuming the person/company you are dealing with is/are legit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think if you buy a wine future for delivery on, let's say, July, 2005 that they can get away with delivering that wine in December, 2005.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you're not a fellow wino? There are no firm promised delivery dates on wine futures purchases, and the delivery window is quite large. If you buy a future now for a Bordeaux 2003 you can expect delivery anytime between say March '06 and December '07, and you have no idea when (or even if) you will get the wine until you get a delivery notice in the mail. Some retailers do not even bother to notify you; you have to keep contacting them until your wine arrives.

[StukaJU87]

Re: Fender is being a bunch of lazy #@$#

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay: retail wine. There is a thing called wine futures. You pay for the wine today (in full), and you take delivery approximately 2-4 years from now. That's assuming the person/company you are dealing with is/are legit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think if you buy a wine future for delivery on, let's say, July, 2005 that they can get away with delivering that wine in December, 2005.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you're not a fellow wino? There are no firm promised delivery dates on wine futures purchases, and the delivery window is quite large. If you buy a future now for a Bordeaux 2003 you can expect delivery anytime between say March '06 and December '07, and you have no idea when (or even if) you will get the wine until you get a delivery notice in the mail. Some retailers do not even bother to notify you; you have to keep contacting them until your wine arrives.

[/ QUOTE ] Sounds like too much hassle for old grapes. Buy a case of beer and be done with it. I gotta wait 3 years to get bombed? Hell, I don't like waiting 3 days. [img]/images/graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

[RP]

Re: Fender is being a bunch of lazy #@$#

No, I'm not a wine drinker. I was just familiar with other futures contracts I've dealt with which had a specific delivery time.

I guess people are willing to deal with that sort of thing for what they believe to be worth it.

Personally, I don't like having such a wide open delivery date. I don't mind waiting for stuff, but I'd like a fairly accurate delivery date.

[Budman68]

Re: Fender is being a bunch of lazy #@$#

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay: retail wine. There is a thing called wine futures. You pay for the wine today (in full), and you take delivery approximately 2-4 years from now. That's assuming the person/company you are dealing with is/are legit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think if you buy a wine future for delivery on, let's say, July, 2005 that they can get away with delivering that wine in December, 2005.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you're not a fellow wino? There are no firm promised delivery dates on wine futures purchases, and the delivery window is quite large. If you buy a future now for a Bordeaux 2003 you can expect delivery anytime between say March '06 and December '07, and you have no idea when (or even if) you will get the wine until you get a delivery notice in the mail. Some retailers do not even bother to notify you; you have to keep contacting them until your wine arrives.

[/ QUOTE ] Sounds like too much hassle for old grapes. Buy a case of beer and be done with it. I gotta wait 3 years to get bombed? Hell, I don't like waiting 3 days. [img]/images/graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="aqua">There's someone that I can drink with!! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] </font>

[lerxstcat]

Re: Fender is being a bunch of lazy #@$#

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Jackson policy regarding estimates of time is not fair, but it is reality, so best to adjust to reality rathen than be repeatedly disappointed.

[/ QUOTE ]Well certainly the second time one orders, they're far less likely to believe the estimated delivery time.The problem for Jackson is replacing those customers who never order a second guitar because of the policy of overpromising and underdelivering.It's more expensive to attract a new customer than it is to retain a current one. At a time when Jackson is trying to expand its customer base, it's a bad to have all these problems.Yes, there will still be a core group who will simply adjust their expectations and not change the number of guitars they'd order, but it seems to me that one of the reasons Jackson has changed hands as many times as it has is because it is a niche player with an often dwindling customer base, something that is only made worse at times when the company is overpromising and underdelivering.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't disagree with your appraisal, but Jackson's bread and butter now is the import market. I think FMIC realizes that its USA guitars market is that niche with extreme brand loyalty. Most are not going to go to ESP, Ibanez or BC Rich despite the time factor, so they have somewhat of a captive audience. The guys who'll go buy used instead probably wouldn't have bought new in the first place. Now FMIC did and does express intent to get the order to delivery time down to 90 days, but that's obviously not happening right now.