Why do the LTD's sell for more then the JCF guitar?

[xenophobe]

Re: Why do the LTD\'s sell for more then the JCF guitar?

No, there's nothing sour grapes on the guitar. No more than there's an elitist push to drive the prices up on the JCFs. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

They're sweet guitars, I'm sure, and I've had several offered to me at great and not so great prices. LTD's they are not thought.

[Exalon]

Re: Why do the LTD\'s sell for more then the JCF guitar?

USA selects are better than ESP's, LTD's are great guitars (those EMG HZ's sing pretty good). i HATE duncan design pickups. i mean, i have an abhoration within me for those suckers like nothing else. true blue seymour duncan all the way or you can forget it.

now, i have an import. its an RR5 with the ivory W/pinstripes and i like it better than the RR1 for balance and playability reasons.

the imports are of good quality even if they dont have all the bells N whistles. i dig em... but i will own a KV2 with blue ghost flames one day.... one day...

[Exalon]

Re: Why do the LTD\'s sell for more then the JCF guitar?

oh yeah and i wouldn't trade my RR5 for any LTD on the planet (and i've played plenty of really impressive LTD's). try and get the same sound out of a LTD as ya do an ESP, i doubt it'll happen without changin pickups.

with that said i have to admit my bridge did have the gold wear off awful fast. i thought about a black body, nikel hardware conversion but i think it'dbe more trouble than its worth. plus i think my axe is pretty rare so i'd like to keep it in stock form.

[Doc Dryer]

Re: Why do the LTD\'s sell for more then the JCF guitar?

Brett hit the nail RIGHT on the HEAD in the 2nd post here - $3500.00 guitar vs. a $1400.00 guitar, and the $3500.00 was in UN-INFLATED DOLLARS - the LTD is simply THREE TIMES the guitar that the JCF is - Americans in general have gotten LAZY !!!!! [img]graemlins/puke.gif[/img]

The Japanese, for example, may NOT be the most INVENTIVE people, but their QUALITY CONTROL and DUPLICATION ABILITIES are SECOND TO NONE !!!!! They have a WORK ETHIC that BLOWS ours AWAY, and would rather go out at lunch and throw themselves on a HARI-KARI DAGGER than produce a SUB-PAR, SH!TTY PRODUCT

Maybe THAT is the reason that I collect MIJ Charvel/Jacksons, Kramers and Fender Strats...{I have MY SHARE of USA stuff as well}...If you get the pre-'85 Fenders or the pre-'94 C/Js or Kramers, you can get 3...4...EVEN FIVE MIJ GUITARS for the price of ONE USA Select, and - IMHO - they play DAMN COMPARABLY to the USA C/Js and Fenders, and will BLOW AWAY Joe-Bob built junk like Washburns and the like...

...Just an old man's OPINION...

[ February 15, 2003, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: Doc Dryer ]

[xenophobe]

Re: Why do the LTD\'s sell for more then the JCF guitar?

Exalon, we're talking about Jackson Rhoads LTDs. [img]graemlins/evilimages/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[petedz]

Re: Why do the LTD\'s sell for more then the JCF guitar?

Doc...Ibanez? ESP? Just wondering...

Not that all Ibanez and ESP guitars are bad, but even with the upper end of the product line it's a cr@p shoot. My bud has a JPM and a Kamikaze that sound decent and play well (the dot matrix graphic pasted on the Kamikaze kinda hurts), but I've run across brand new JEMs, JPMs, Kamikazes, etc. that were unplayable. Find me any Hamer or Music Man that falls into that category. I suspect it will take some doing.

Respectfully, I believe that the issue isn't the work ethic of the culture. It is the mission/business model of the builder. Some companies don't care what they turn out, as long as they can sell it. Others (the USA Hamer factory is a good example) will turn down work rather than put out junk. I believe that there are more USA guitar brands than Japanese that really care about their products. The Jackson custom shop is (the last that I know of?) dedicated to all out shred guitars, and I salute them for it. [img]graemlins/notworthy.gif[/img] Here's hoping that they can stabilize the quality of their products under the new ownership...

In other news, I'm turning into an anti-globalization nut. Not a morally defensible stance, mind you, but pure, unadulterated self interest. Support quality workmanship with your $$ by all means, but if you're in the US, buy US products. You're feeding your neighbor.

Jeez, I feel like I just completed a novel. [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[ February 15, 2003, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: ElectricPhase ]

[Shawn Lutz]

Re: Why do the LTD\'s sell for more then the JCF guitar?

I agree with Doc on the MIJ Charvels. I have four Model series that I replaced all the pickups with DiMarzio and Duncans and added OFR's. The dollar value of all of them combined is about the price one USA JacksonI have a DK2 that close to the quality of JCF-01.

I also agree that not all JCF-01's are bunk...mine is nice and I have to say sounds and plays incredible, is it worth what I paid for it...absolutely. I don't know what it is but man they sound different and have a unique characteristic than anything else I have played, could be nostalgia as my polka dot sounds unique too

[777SteveVai777]

Re: Why do the LTD\'s sell for more then the JCF guitar?

ElectricPhase, I'll be the one to defend the Ibanez guitars.

I love them in every way possible. Give me an RG series 500 and up and I'll be perfectly happy.

My Ibanez Jem 7VWH came from Musicians Friend with ABSOLUTLEY NO FLAWS. It came tuned, with low action, and the neck is perfect. I have not had to make any neck adjustments at all. This baby plays like butter, and has for a little over a year.

I'm with Doc on the imports! They rule!

[petedz]

Re: Why do the LTD\'s sell for more then the JCF guitar?

I love them in every way possible.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Word,

I never said ALL Ibanez/ESP are bad. I played an RG-570 for many years and it was fine after putting real pickups in it....and I'll stick up for my friend's Kamikaze and JPM. I even offered to buy the Kamikaze when he had some doubts about it at first.

I think somebody missed the point.

[Greg Crowe]

Re: Why do the LTD\'s sell for more then the JCF guitar?

Sorry Doc but I couldn't disagree with you more on comparing a JCF01 guitar to a production line USA Select. The JCF01 guitars used production techniques not used since 1992! And what guitar was that in 1992? It was the LTD.

The JCF01 guitars have 3 piece necks, no scarf joint, binding over frets, old-style eurothane paint, etc. etc. etc. The JCF01 guitars are probably the most "custom shop" thing Jackson has built in the past 5 years.

The only reason the JCF01's haven't skyrocketed in value is because WE have not pimped them or hyped them up. Hardly anyone outside the JCF even knows they exist. I guess we can only blame ourselves. We originally planned on doing a webpage linked to the JCF explaining what they were and how they came to be. We just never got around to it. I think we still should build that page.

By the way, my JCF01-00 hangs on the wall right next to my LTD [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

As for Japanese Charvels, I still love the 87-88 neck-thru models(own 3) and the 89 750XL(own 1).

[ February 15, 2003, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Greg Crowe ]

[xenophobe]

Re: Why do the LTD\'s sell for more then the JCF guitar?

ELECTRICPHASE, this thread has NOTHING to do with ESP/LTDs... it's about the JACKSON LTDs.... [img]graemlins/evilimages/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[petedz]

Re: Why do the LTD\'s sell for more then the JCF guitar?

XENO...re-read ALL of my posts in the THREAD. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] I already said that I haven't played a JACKSON RHOADS LTD and wouldn't care to because of the fret access problem. (no need to yell, btw)

I'm one of the original JCF buyers, and hopped on the thread to comment on them. Then Doc started goin' on about how awesome the Japanese work ethic is and I responded to that off topic post. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] I wasn't talking about ESP LTDs. I was talking about high end ESP artist guitars like the Kamikaze compared to US built high end guitars like Hamer, Music Man, Tom Andersons, etc.

[ February 15, 2003, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: ElectricPhase ]

[xenophobe]

Re: Why do the LTD\'s sell for more then the JCF guitar?

Yes, very good. My apologies.... I guess. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[kickaxeguitars]

Re: Why do the LTD\'s sell for more then the JCF guitar?

I never had the pleasure of playing a JCF axe but did own LTD 069 which was 100% mint and in unplayed condition.

I felt the LTD was an OK guitar,definately nothing to write home about. The price tag was steep but that was directly associated with the collectibility factor of the guitar.

As far as it being a "player" it was nothing special and I have played MANY guitars, both Jackson and non Jackson, that played better.

However, given the symbolisation and the collectibility factor, the LTD'S will retain their value and probably escalate.

Would I buy another? NO WAY would I tie up that much cheddar in one guitar again.

The bottom line is that guitars are instruments that were meant to be played. I suppose if you played an LTD on a regular gigging basis(after all, $3000-$4000 is in the "professional player range)The guitar would be reduced to a " oh my God, did you see what some a$$hole did to that LTD?" and the value would dramatically be decreased.

But I'm not so sure that many players would ever consider an LTD as a player due to it's goofy fretboard access and running the risk of being labled a "wannabe".

[Stinkbug]

Re: Why do the LTD\'s sell for more then the JCF guitar?

This is an interesting discussion...

I recently purchased a JCF and I have had an LTD from the begining. I was not in on the initial JCF deal and after learning of them I wanted one. However, I was hesitant to purchase one after reading all the bad press they were getting on this board. So in effect the very people who help create this guitar devalued it for me. Interesting...

I think the most critical variables in the LTDs being valued higher than the JCF are:
1. The LTDs are ~10 years older
2. Jackson did mad marketing for the LTD
3. LTD is a unique representative of one of Randy's guitars that was not and has not been widely available.
4. The original selling price of an LTD was considerably higher.
5. The LTD has had the opportunity to establish a value in a strong sellers market.

In the end the market determines the value of any guitar. When the market returns it may have a significant effect on the value of the JCF.

Just some thoughts... [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]