Jackson vs. ESP???

[Marcheville]

Look, I have been pretty much a worshipper at the Jackson altar since I traded in my old SG with the Bigsby back in the 80's for my RR-1. I have zero issues with some of the older Jacksons and I got into a really heated debate defending Jackson with a buddy of mine who plays quasi-professionally with his PRS, creepy looking Modulus (with that bizarre neck) and his semi-hollow body Gretsch "thing" that looks like something an Elvis impersonator should be shouldering. I have towed the company line for awhile now, probably longer than many of you (but not all) have been playing or been alive even. I've been laughed at for liking pointy headstocks and for playing a "skateboard" guitar many times. But my reply, uniformly, has been that "dollar for dollar" there is not a better built guitar made in America than Jackson.

Even the wifer's imported RR-24 is a killer guitar and I will go to bat and say it croaks the Laiho ESP in my opinion.

But I am getting really irked by the attitudes at the shops and the "elitist, smug" attitude that some of the folks who sell Jacksons have. I'm tired of the "you just don't get it, if I have to explain Jackson to you, its not for you" type BS I encounter on the RARE occassion I find a shop that has one or two American made or high end Japanese Jacksons.

The lack of selection is wearing on my nerves too!

Yeah, I think the ESP LTD stuff made in Korea can stay in Korea.
That's not a guitar I want to play more than likely, without MASSIVE mods and a rebuild which defeats the purpose of a low end guitar in the first place.

But I am also getting pretty tired of finding the really low end Jacksons in the shops and when I can find (once in a great while) an American made Jackson, it is usually a fecked up color (Neon green, pink, Jenna Jameson picture, whatever), with half an inch of dust on it, on the top rack of the store. Invariably, if I wanted to buy a US made (or high end Japanese) Jackson, nobody has them or if they have one model, it will not have the PU config I want or the color is terrible. Of course, I am always told one can be ordered for me from Jackson if I want to pay 50%-100% of the price of the thing in advance and wait forever.

I'm happy to pay for the guitar...when I receive it or can pick it up! Why should I pay for the "privilege" of being able to buy a Jackson at an inflated MAP and have to wait 9-12 months before its in my hands?

I'm also annoyed that the GC people will try to downsell me into some POS low end Jackson that in unplayable. If it makes me a snob and an elitist prick than so be it but Jackson bastardized the entire company by making those low end junkers.

You can't have it both ways. If you want to be "cottage industry and elitist" you can't sell mainstream junk to 15 year old kids for 1/5th the price of a "real guitar!"

My biggest mistake was not buying the PC-1 I saw and tried that a guy in the local want ads was selling. I was retarded to let that go for $200 in difference between what he wanted and what I wanted to spend.

Now I can't find a decent PC-"anything" anywhere local. But everyone will order me one if I want to wait.

I want a high quality, strat/super shaped guitar. I would prefer (strongly) it be a Jackson USA made (or even a high end Japanese Jackson) but Ill be damned if I am going to drop $1000-$2000+ on an axe when I can't play it first or get it configured the way I want (oh, did I mention the wait?).

I really do not want to buy an ESP. Or a JEM. But at least I can find them to try out around here, both in stores and in want ads. The JEMs play very well, very close (the Wizard necks are great, not wild about bolt ons though) to Jacksons and now I finally tried out an ESP and it's also very close to Jackson.

So (and I am sure this is going to piss off a lot of you but maybe if someone from Jackson sees this it might make a difference), I can get what I want, in under a week, for about the same money and it will read ESP or Ibanez on the headstock or I can get circle jerked and spoken down to by stores selling American/HE Jap Jacksons about how lucky I am that they will even order what I want and that I should bend over for them and remember that "the longer I wait, the more I anticipate, the better its going to be when I finally get it!"

This is BS. Its asinine, stupid and its alienating me (and a lot of others I imagine). WTF happened to this company?!? In the late 80's/early 90's I could easily find these guitars and never had to put up with this. Fifteen years later and its all screwed up? This is a terrible business model for Jackson and it's going to bite them in the ass hard. I do not think the low enders sell very well (not with all the low end Ibanez, Epiphone and related junk hanging next to them) and those of us who want a higher end piece can't get what we want and are basically told to "screw off!"

Yeah, sure, maybe ESP will follow the same stupid path. And if they do, thats f*cking fine. Just as long as it is after I get the guitar I want with no hassle.

Ebay sorta scares me but if thats the only way I can get what I want then what do I do?

Are you reading this Jackson corporate?

/rant off!

March

[Marcheville]

I've seen Rhodes... and Rhoades... but this is the first time I've seen it spelt Rhandy...

Thanks for being so helpful and correcting my spelling mistake.

[kelly user]

breath, breath, now see here, seeing as you don't want to raise our blood pressure, because i feel another heart attack coming on. You can buy stuff from dealers and musiciansfriend.com, and if its not your cup of tea then send it back, you have 60 days to ponder it.

[Nazgul]

No ESP please..
I don`t like them really... I wanted one for a long time (Forest1000 I think)
then I wanted to buy a Jackson... When I was searching for a RR3 I found
the ESP Forest and some others ESP`s and I`ve tested them and I must
say they don`t sound good in my ears...

You do realize that this thread is about high end ESPs vs. high end Jacksons, right?

[Marcheville]

I just had an interesting chat with my Modulus playing buddy and he made a really good point I never thought of.

When I got my RR-1 back in 85? 86? it cost me a $1100 + my SG as a trade in so this is like $1600 or so. More than two decades later you can buy a black RR-1 new for $1800 or so. So in 20+ years, Jackson has only increased the price of my model (lets forget any changes in quality and the pre-Fender/Fender stuff for a moment) about 11% raw. Factor in increases in prices of everything else and Jackson probably makes a lot less on an RR-1 now than it did when I purchased mine!

My buddy thinks the reason Jackson USAs and those made in the CS are like endangered species in that he thinks they probably make very little, if any, profit on the high end stuff because there is a definite limit on what people will pay for these guys (would you pay $4K for a bone stock black RR-1? I wouldn't!). It cost more money to have them made in the states and you lose the economies-of-scale on small production runs.

This is why (he says) Jackson has a DISINCENTIVE to make a lot of USAs.
The foreign made stuff costs less, sells for less and the % relative mark up is probably MUCH higher.

I dunno who is buying the JS type stuff, I do not know how many 15 year old metal heads are out there who want something that has "Jackson" on the headstock instead of Gibson or Fender. I guess I am an anachronism in that there aren't many people, relatively speaking, who want $2000+ guitars and because Jackson makes, percentile-wise, less per unit on a USA made piece its even more reason for them to put out fewer and fewer each year.

My buddy thinks they keep making the USAs for the PR value only. Maybe he is correct.

This really sucks bad! It's like finding out a buddy has cancer and is going to die a slow death from it but for sure, he is gonna push up daisies.

It would be catastrophic if Jackson nixed all the USAs save the CS model stuff.

Maybe I can get used to a DK2M and that maple neck?

Oh, did I mention this totally sucks?

March

[dtt001]

I have both Jackson and some Esp guitars. I have mentioned this before, I think Jackson makes the better guitar for me. Esp while technically a very good guitar, their overseas made versions seem to require additional work...better quality parts, pickups etc. before they play well. Their USA guitars are decent, however it is a hit and miss with them if you can find one. I have a US Esp explorer that is better than the original '84 Gibson and a US telly which still requires more new parts/modification.

It seems to come down to the some of the usual things, playing ability, $$ you can spend and personal preference. I would note though, I think most players want a guitar a certain way. High end custom shop aside, the way most go about this is to customize after the fact, new pickups, hardware etc. I have yet to want to alter any Jackson I have owned save for maybe some cleanup, however I have altered/modified a few Esp's I have owned.

....just my couple of cents on this one. Thxs.

[Mr.Lizardman]

In my experience, trying to compare the USA and Non USA Jacksons is like comparing night and day- you can just look at a USA and tell there's killer craftsmanship as opposed to the kind of thrown together look of the imports....Not to mention the playing action! I've played a lot of ESPs over the years, but I tend to like the Jackson USAs MUCH better. Plus, I am in favor of supporting American products. If I had a choice, I'd rather have European craftsmanship than any Oriental- there seems to be a much larger pride in workmanship- No offense, just the way I've seen it....
I live close to Drum City Guitar Land in Denver Colorado, and Jason carries the best of the best- very easy to compare/contrast/try. (Plus lots of less expensive models/brands) Check 'em out!

http://www.drumcityguitarland.com

I couldn't tell where you hail from, Marcheville- maybe you're just in an area that happens to be devoid of decent guitar shops for some reason? Been there, done that- Hated it-

[kelly user]

oriental................... the Japanese made one hell of the guitar back in the day, endriks comparison between a RR pro and a RR1 proved that 10 fold!!!!!!!!

[Extant]

Meh.

I'm not American, so I don't have any bias at all. To me, high-end guitars are high-end guitars wherever the hell they come from, and Japanese master craftsmanship is every bit as good as American master craftsmanship. Hell, even places like Korea are catching up.

[budgolf]

Look, I have been pretty much a worshipper at the Jackson altar since I traded in my old SG with the Bigsby back in the 80's for my RR-1. I have zero issues with some of the older Jacksons and I got into a really heated debate defending Jackson with a buddy of mine who plays quasi-professionally with his PRS, creepy looking Modulus (with that bizarre neck) and his semi-hollow body Gretsch "thing" that looks like something an Elvis impersonator should be shouldering. I have towed the company line for awhile now, probably longer than many of you (but not all) have been playing or been alive even. I've been laughed at for liking pointy headstocks and for playing a "skateboard" guitar many times. But my reply, uniformly, has been that "dollar for dollar" there is not a better built guitar made in America than Jackson.

Even the wifer's imported RR-24 is a killer guitar and I will go to bat and say it croaks the Laiho ESP in my opinion.

But I am getting really irked by the attitudes at the shops and the "elitist, smug" attitude that some of the folks who sell Jacksons have. I'm tired of the "you just don't get it, if I have to explain Jackson to you, its not for you" type BS I encounter on the RARE occassion I find a shop that has one or two American made or high end Japanese Jacksons.

The lack of selection is wearing on my nerves too!

Yeah, I think the ESP LTD stuff made in Korea can stay in Korea.
That's not a guitar I want to play more than likely, without MASSIVE mods and a rebuild which defeats the purpose of a low end guitar in the first place.

But I am also getting pretty tired of finding the really low end Jacksons in the shops and when I can find (once in a great while) an American made Jackson, it is usually a fecked up color (Neon green, pink, Jenna Jameson picture, whatever), with half an inch of dust on it, on the top rack of the store. Invariably, if I wanted to buy a US made (or high end Japanese) Jackson, nobody has them or if they have one model, it will not have the PU config I want or the color is terrible. Of course, I am always told one can be ordered for me from Jackson if I want to pay 50%-100% of the price of the thing in advance and wait forever.

I'm happy to pay for the guitar...when I receive it or can pick it up! Why should I pay for the "privilege" of being able to buy a Jackson at an inflated MAP and have to wait 9-12 months before its in my hands?

I'm also annoyed that the GC people will try to downsell me into some POS low end Jackson that in unplayable. If it makes me a snob and an elitist prick than so be it but Jackson bastardized the entire company by making those low end junkers.

You can't have it both ways. If you want to be "cottage industry and elitist" you can't sell mainstream junk to 15 year old kids for 1/5th the price of a "real guitar!"

My biggest mistake was not buying the PC-1 I saw and tried that a guy in the local want ads was selling. I was retarded to let that go for $200 in difference between what he wanted and what I wanted to spend.

Now I can't find a decent PC-"anything" anywhere local. But everyone will order me one if I want to wait.

I want a high quality, strat/super shaped guitar. I would prefer (strongly) it be a Jackson USA made (or even a high end Japanese Jackson) but Ill be damned if I am going to drop $1000-$2000+ on an axe when I can't play it first or get it configured the way I want (oh, did I mention the wait?).

I really do not want to buy an ESP. Or a JEM. But at least I can find them to try out around here, both in stores and in want ads. The JEMs play very well, very close (the Wizard necks are great, not wild about bolt ons though) to Jacksons and now I finally tried out an ESP and it's also very close to Jackson.

So (and I am sure this is going to piss off a lot of you but maybe if someone from Jackson sees this it might make a difference), I can get what I want, in under a week, for about the same money and it will read ESP or Ibanez on the headstock or I can get circle jerked and spoken down to by stores selling American/HE Jap Jacksons about how lucky I am that they will even order what I want and that I should bend over for them and remember that "the longer I wait, the more I anticipate, the better its going to be when I finally get it!"

This is BS. Its asinine, stupid and its alienating me (and a lot of others I imagine). WTF happened to this company?!? In the late 80's/early 90's I could easily find these guitars and never had to put up with this. Fifteen years later and its all screwed up? This is a terrible business model for Jackson and it's going to bite them in the ass hard. I do not think the low enders sell very well (not with all the low end Ibanez, Epiphone and related junk hanging next to them) and those of us who want a higher end piece can't get what we want and are basically told to "screw off!"

Yeah, sure, maybe ESP will follow the same stupid path. And if they do, thats f*cking fine. Just as long as it is after I get the guitar I want with no hassle.

Ebay sorta scares me but if thats the only way I can get what I want then what do I do?

Are you reading this Jackson corporate?

/rant off!

March

People can talk their shit on " mainstream junk" all damn day long, but ya know, go tho the Gibson forum, hell, right here in this forum and look at the rant threads that are six or seven pages long about the freaking problems everyone is having with their $5000 holy grail custom shop guitars. I've got a JS30 V that freakin shreds. I mean freakin shreds. And it's in good shape, the finish looks good, sounds great, pots aren't scratchy. So it's quality is pretty good too. Not comparable to a $2000 guitar, but after reading the posts of members here that have years more experience with any and all guitars talk about the shit that is coming out of the USA, I'll keep my money, and my mainstream junk meant for a 15 year old. I will eventually buy up in quality and spend more money, but no one will ever convince me that a fantastic guitar has to cost thousands.

[Predator1]

I own 2 ESP Guitars and a several USA Charvels and Jacksons. I must sayy that as far as fit and finish the ESP's were superior. I am anal about my guitars and I could find nothing wrong period. Unfortunatly I cannot say the same for my Charvels. They all seem to at least have a few finish flaws. I have played no less then 12 EVH guitars and almost all of them had sloppy paint, bad fret work or drying necks. You know the fret ends sticking out. This on guitars with hang tags dated in 10/06. I have a CS Charvel spec'd out, but I am having a hard time finding a dealer to place the order. I may be going to plan B. That being a CS ESP Urban Camo.

[Bengal65]

March,
Your hitting a lot of good points. I find this situation on quality handmade American products across the board. Not just guitars. Almost anything I buy is mail ordered because I can't find it locally. I know it does suck. I hear ya!

I do my research the best I can on products. That goes for anything, car parts, stereo's collectables etc. I can say every guitar I purchased by mail order or on-line has been pretty darn good. You always take your chances buying site unseen, but many times you just have too.

It seems many of these companies are building the good stuff for people in the know. Up until I joined JCF I was pretty much in the dark about Jacksons and Charvels as far as recent history. I remember when they came out back in the day, but I hadn't seen an American J/C in a guitar shop in a long long time.

[Bengal65]

Meh.

I'm not American, so I don't have any bias at all. To me, high-end guitars are high-end guitars wherever the hell they come from, and Japanese master craftsmanship is every bit as good as American master craftsmanship. Hell, even places like Korea are catching up.

One exception I find to this is hardware and electronics on guitars built in Japan. Hardware made in Europe or America is superior IMO. The electronics made in the USA are far superior to their Asian counter parts.

[z1n]

I hate having to settle for a USA Jackson. I've gotten GAS for many USA Jacksons and in the end, never got what I wanted. No one has them in stock. Usually you have to wait for one to pop up or order one and wait.

As for quality, Jackson and ESP both have nice axes. I think the quality is close enough for me that I would buy based on which one matched my specs the best. Then make sure when you buy it you can return it. gl

[Carbophos]

I don't think that it's correct to compare the tone of Horizon and RR-1, cos Horison has mahogany body w/maple top, while RR-1 is made of alder. Obviously Horison has more low end, and RR tone is more upper-mid focused.

But anyway I'll tell you one thing - the only ultimate comparison of two guitar (this goes to the amps and pedals as well) tones is the band mix. I bet that RR-1 tone will rip thru Horizon like a chainsaw.