Why does the Kahler kill it?

[Mr Metal]

A Kahler would also be more expensive to manufacture than a Floyd (many more parts, bearings, gears, etc. etc.).........I think part of the reason most manufacturers in the 80's switched to Floyds was that Floyds cost less and pretty much accomplished the same end result.......More bang for the money so to say.................

[RobRR]

I like Kahlers... own a few of them, and have found that if set up properly, they will hold tune just as well as any other Floyd out there. Hint: Solder the ball ends. Takes all of 30 seconds to do all 6 strings, and works perfect every time.

[roodyrocker]

Here's a few shots of my ugly Kahlered, custom shop 24 fret Rhoads, which has tone sucked out of it, won't stay in tune, and has no feel to it





If anyone has any more of these Kahler monstrosities, please send them to me so as to keep them from cluttering up your guitar racks!

[Szostak]

Here's a few shots of my ugly Kahlered, custom shop 24 fret Rhoads, which has tone sucked out of it, won't stay in tune, and has no feel to it





If anyone has any more of these Kahler monstrosities, please send them to me so as to keep them from cluttering up your guitar racks!

Awesome inlays! Do they have a name?

[StukaJU87]

Awesome inlays! Do they have a name?

They are Cobras.

[Bengal65]

Ah yes, the debate. I've never played a Kahler'd guitar that stayed in tune, unless it was the double locker version. The concept was/is great, but didn't work IMO. Plus, yes they look ugly

[Newc]

Too many moving parts and pieces to the bridge saddle = loss of tone.

First you have the roller, which is usually brass (which by nature will give the string a less-vibrant tone - some call it "warmer" or "darker" - it doesn't have the same high-level as steel), then that roller is held onto the saddle by a pin, which means there's a hole in the roller. The pin is very small, and thus isn't very dense, which means string vibration dissipates faster than the thicker screw/pin of a Tuneomatic.

Next, the arm assembly that the pin holds the roller on is held in place by a clamp, and is not directly connected to the bridge cam. This arm assembly has one thin allen screw that passes through the center to the base plate for height adjustment similar to a Fender saddle.

After that is the 2nd half of the saddle assembly (fulcrum) which is connected to the cam, and which the clamp (a thin piece of brass) screws onto to hold the saddle roller arm assembly.

There's too many gaps in a Kahler between the saddle and the actual bridge. As well, the huge flat baseplate sitting flush against the body acts as a vibration damper, similar to holding a bell as you strike it.

While the weight of it adds mass to the body, and thereby should add sustain, the sheer size of it and the gaps in the pieces reduce the level of solid contact points. As well, the unit uses softer material so you get a noticeable reduction in string tone.

I dunno where you guys are soldering ball ends, but the cups on my Kahler trem (2300?) appear to be plastic, or at least a very cheap metal.

However, I will say that nothing short of a real slide beats a Kahler for faking slide tones. I used to play Led Zeppelin's version of You Shook Me with a Kahler trem and it sounded just like a slide. Floyds bend too easily for that.

[RobRR]

What you do is you solder the wrapped part of the string at the ball end BEFORE you put the string in the Kahler. Basically the same as tinning a wire. It eliminates any stretch or unwinding.

[excon]

Kahler trems are tall bridges that require a pitched neck much like a Gibson Les Paul with a Tunomatic bridge. Recessed Floyd trems are low bridges and require a paralell neck much like a Fender strat with a vintage style trem.

A guitar player that learns on a low bridge can have a difficult time adapting their picking technique to the tall bridge and vice versa. Since most trem guitars have recessed Floyds, it makes sense that most guitar players are used to recessed Floyds, and they would not want to go through the trouble of adapting their technique to a Kahler. Therefore the Floyd is more desirable.
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This is why I think Kahler failed.

When the Floyd and Kahler trems became available a lot of people had the Floyds put on their strats as an upgrade to the Fender trem. The recess allowed the Floyd to sit low like the original Fender trem, and it allowed the guitar to keep the paralell neck it was originally designed with. The Floyd trem gave the Strat tremendous advantages without changing the overall feel of the guitar. So, Floyd Rose trems sold well.

However, the Kahler trem was completely different from the original Fender trem. Therefore it was not an ideal replacement trem for Strats. It mounted differently, and it was inevitably tall which changed the feel of the guitar. Plus, the Strat player also had to tilt the neck back to accommodate it.

Gibson players, on the other hand, didn’t seem to care much for trems at all even though the Kahler would have been ideal. All it required was a small route to mount it on a Gibson, and it sat at the same height as the Tunomatic bridge. For whatever reason, Gibson players didn’t feel the need to divebomb and squeel with their Fender counterparts. So, I don’t think Kahler trems sold quite as well as Floyd Rose did.

As the ‘80s wore on metal became more popular and so did the demand for metal guitars equipped with tremolos. Jackson, BC Rich, and others did make a lot of metal guitars with Kahlers, but I think they made more with Floyds probably because of the reason I described above.

I know Kahler went under because Gary Kahler chose not to licence his design, and his legal bills sunk him, but if his design would have been as popular with Gibson players as Floyd Rose’s design was with Strat players he might have been able to stay in business, and we would probably see a lot more Kalhers around than we do now.

[jrnic]

I never was much into trems back then, I really only used Gibson or "Gibson style" guitars. But I broke down and had 2 of my guitars equipped with Kahlers because of the Gibson style mounts they had. You couldn't mount a Floyd on a stopbar/TOM bridge guitar without routing out much of the wood in back. Made sense to use a Kahler. I loved them. I didn't think they "sucked" any tone out of the guitars. Years later, after getting rid of those Kahler'd guitars I finally got a Floyd on a strat. I was reluctant because I didn't know anything about them. I was a pro at maintaining a Kahler. I have to say, I like the Floyds (I have 4 now) but I miss having a Kahler trem. I still think I might get another one. Like it was said here, because they are so "unpopular" maybe I can get one pretty cheap.

[Newc]

Floyds did not have the recess until years later - '85 or so - when Vai dug out the lion's claw on Green Meanie.

Before that, they either sat flat on the body (no pullups) or the neck was tilted way back.

In EVH's case, he left the guitar with incredibly high action.

[Phantom Hawk]

One question I have is : If Kahlers are such tone suckers, why do some famous players still favor them ? I'm sure they could have any bridge in the world. Tipton and Downing from Judas Priest still use 'em and it wasn't too long ago that Mustaine and Friedman both had Kahlers on their sig models. Non trem, but still the same saddles, etc.

Me, I never had trouble with Kahlers. I only came to favor Floyds cuz thats what came on my first RR1 back in '91, and once I got that, I rarely played anything else for years.

[EvilBatman]

Hey roodyrocker, can you tell me what finish that is? It looks great. Thanks.

[Newc]

One question I have is : If Kahlers are such tone suckers, why do some famous players still favor them ? I'm sure they could have any bridge in the world. Tipton and Downing from Judas Priest still use 'em and it wasn't too long ago that Mustaine and Friedman both had Kahlers on their sig models. Non trem, but still the same saddles, etc.

Me, I never had trouble with Kahlers. I only came to favor Floyds cuz thats what came on my first RR1 back in '91, and once I got that, I rarely played anything else for years.

I never understood why Mustaine had one, as he referred to them as tone suckers when he got the Y2KV model. I mean, you'd think that if it was his sig model, it woulda been made to his specs.

Anyhoo, Tipton and Downing have had those Hamers since about 1983, when the Floyd was still a Kramer exclusive.

Then again, maybe they preferred the Kahler's ability to not go flat when bending like a floating Floyd does. Maybe Hamer couldn't get Floyds cheaply enough.

Once any guitarist gets their sound out of a guitar and amp, they rarely change anything, including the bridge. If they've got EQ compensating for what the Kahler takes away, then if they change bridges their tone will change, and they have to do it all over again. Many would rather stick with what they've got.

[Gartron]

Great read, thanks guys!!