An Honest Question

[sakeido]

Dude, what's up with you flaming people lately? You called Xenophobe an idiot in the 8-string thread, now you're calling Newc a dumbass? You're walking on thin ice... watch it.

If they used some kind of logical process putting together their arguments, I wouldn't have said anything to either of them. But they didn't and invented ridiculous numbers instead, so that's whats up.

[toejam]

So you can't have any kind of conversation/argument with anybody without resorting to name calling? How mature.

[destructin_od]

Sakeido? Wes is that you ? :ROTF:

I dont hate esp's. Infact i dig some of their guitars. Like m2 (maple) ,sv,horizons etc... But they feel a little ...umm.. plastic? I mean i cant find what i am looking for. Jackson's feels , sounds better to me. But i wouldn't say no to a horizon with fr and smurf hat headstock.

[Newc]

ESP doesn't have any entry level USA models because they don't make fucking American guitars. Also, their standard series is around $1150-1400 dumbass, and being equivalent in quality to the SL2s and that, are the much better deal. Did you actually pull that $600 from your ass? Where did that come from?

The more and more I see from Jackson the less and less it seems they are willing to actually compete with other instrument makers (especially those from Japan) to see who can make the better guitar for the money. So they just increase the price, without reducing the amount of mistakes the custom shop makes, without tightening up quality control, or introducing any new noteworthy models. What is more disturbing is that it seems most of the people on this forum are OK with that.

$600 is considered "entry level". "Entry Level" means "first good guitar I ever bought". It's just after "beginner level $150 pawn shop junker" that people usually learn on before deciding whether or not to stick with it or take up another instrument. Hence, when you talk about ESPee's "entry level" models vs Jackson's "entry level" USA models, you automatically refer to the $600 price range.


Tim: I was under the impression Jackson was started with an original design. Charvel may have been making Strat copies as a Custom Shop, but 90% of the ones I'm aware of had noticeable differences - graphics that Fender had no clue about, different pickup configs that Fender had no clue about, rear-routing that Fender had no clue about, etc etc.

If we're going to split early-days hairs, you may as well say that Orville Gibson was making copies of other people's models way back when they were only making banjos and acoustics.

This particular discussion is limited to production models only. Custom Shop models are exempt because they do not represent the company's product range. Ergo, Jackson does not have any production model that is a copy of anyone else's design. They have deriviatives but not copies.

[sakeido]

$600 is considered "entry level". "Entry Level" means "first good guitar I ever bought". It's just after "beginner level $150 pawn shop junker" that people usually learn on before deciding whether or not to stick with it or take up another instrument. Hence, when you talk about ESPee's "entry level" models vs Jackson's "entry level" USA models, you automatically refer to the $600 price range.


Tim: I was under the impression Jackson was started with an original design. Charvel may have been making Strat copies as a Custom Shop, but 90% of the ones I'm aware of had noticeable differences - graphics that Fender had no clue about, different pickup configs that Fender had no clue about, rear-routing that Fender had no clue about, etc etc.

If we're going to split early-days hairs, you may as well say that Orville Gibson was making copies of other people's models way back when they were only making banjos and acoustics.

This particular discussion is limited to production models only. Custom Shop models are exempt because they do not represent the company's product range. Ergo, Jackson does not have any production model that is a copy of anyone else's design. They have deriviatives but not copies.

Actually, "entry level USA model" obviously means, to me, more expensive than the Japanese models but less expensive than existing USA models. In that context I mentioned it should be blindingly obvious. You can read, right? It basically said "there is no entry-level USA Jackson to compete with the ESP Standard Series." So why would I be talking about the $600 price point?

Read this so you can put a scholarly name to what you are doing right here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_person

And according to your last point there, ESP only makes derivatives, not copies as well. You need to apply the same reasoning you are using to defend Jackson to all sides of the argument here for you to convince anyone but fanboys of what you are saying.

[Special-K]

-IMO the Jacksons have a great history, a superior custom shop (ok having some problems now, but looking forward that they will get them right )
-Jacksons have the better and more original design...
-My god Randy Rhoads played a Jackson!...
-They are build in Japan not Korea like ESPees
- They have a better logo

[Szostak]

Actually, "entry level USA model" obviously means, to me, more expensive than the Japanese models but less expensive than existing USA models. In that context I mentioned it should be blindingly obvious. You can read, right? It basically said "there is no entry-level USA Jackson to compete with the ESP Standard Series." So why would I be talking about the $600 price point?

Read this so you can put a scholarly name to what you are doing right here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_person

And according to your last point there, ESP only makes derivatives, not copies as well. You need to apply the same reasoning you are using to defend Jackson to all sides of the argument here for you to convince anyone but fanboys of what you are saying.

:ROTF:
It pains me to read what you have to say. It's like watching a Bill Hicks show lol. Do you provoke on purpose or is it just ignorant?

[anuske9]

"An example of a straw man fallacy:
Person A: I don't think children should play on busy streets.
Person B: I think that it would be foolish to lock children up all day.

By insinuating that Person A's argument is far more dramatic than it is, Person B has side-stepped the issue. The straw man person B has set up is the premise that "The only way to stop children running into the busy streets is to keep them inside all day", which is not person A's position.

Another example:
Person A: We should legalize marijuana.
Person B: No! Any society with unrestricted access to drugs loses its work ethic.

The proposal was to legalize marijuana. Person B has exaggerated this to a position harder to defend: "unrestricted access to drugs".[1] "

:ROTF::ROTF::ROTF:

If that isn't the essence of politics, I don't know what is...

[sakeido]

:ROTF:
It pains me to read what you have to say. It's like watching a Bill Hicks show lol. Do you provoke on purpose or is it just ignorant?

Provoke what? The first question in the post, loaded as it was, started a debate. I didn't even jump until it was way under way. I'm speaking my piece here and then defending it. No big deal.

[sakeido]

-IMO the Jacksons have a great history, a superior custom shop (ok having some problems now, but looking forward that they will get them right )
-Jacksons have the better and more original design...
-My god Randy Rhoads played a Jackson!...
-They are build in Japan not Korea like ESPees
- They have a better logo

-It doesn't matter what history the company has, the guitars can still suck. Example: Gibson. Superior custom shop - only if you want airbrushed finishes. Otherwise they are almost exactly the same.
-Quantify this point.
-But he didn't MAKE your Jackson
-ESP Standard Series are built in Japan, not Korea
-I agree with you here, Jackson's logo is awesome especially in MOP

[sakeido]

If that isn't the essence of politics, I don't know what is...

Also the essence of forums as well, it appears

[toejam]

-My god Randy Rhoads played a Jackson!...
-They are build in Japan not Korea like ESPees
- They have a better logo

ESPs are made in Japan... they're a Japanese company.

The LTD line is made in Korea.

[ABSOLUT CHARVEL]

Provoke what? The first question in the post, loaded as it was, started a debate. I didn't even jump until it was way under way. I'm speaking my piece here and then defending it. No big deal.

What the issue is not about debate, but your condescending remarks towards other members.
Example:
In that context I mentioned it should be blindingly obvious. You can read, right?

Did you actually pull that $600 from your ass? Where did that come from?

You wish to make a point, so why distract from it with this attitude which dilutes any validity in your opinion? A forum is a place to speak your mind, but here is not a place to treat others in this fashion. There is no defending that. It has been mentioned in another thread by an Admin that you are on thin ice.

This is more than I really wanted to play into the war of words, because I do think you are intelligent enough to know exactly what you are doing, and know you are provoking others. Do the right thing.

[McD]

Newc for president!

There's a huge difference between "deriviation" and "copy".

Jackson does not have a Strat, Les Paul, Explorer, Flying V, Firebird (anymore), SG, Jaguar, Telecaster, or 335. While they made many Custom Shop derivatives (neckthrough vs set-neck or bolt-on, better tops, etc), they never really had an exact "copy" of anyone's design as a production model (yes, that includes the Firebird Pro which were bolt-on, not neckthrough, as well as the Y2KV which was neckthrough, not set-neck).

ESPee's first models were Soloist copies right down to the headstock. Throw in the Explorer copies and everything else that follows their tradition of "let's steal someone else's idea since they're making a fortune".

They have nothing original aside from those injection-molded plastic Batgirl models.

Ergo, they suck.

[thetroy]

I believe sakeido is saying Jackson ought to bring back the USA "Student" models. Like a USA Soloist and a Dinky with no binding, just dot inlays, plain finishes, etc. so people can get a USA quality axe without paying for all the upgraded cosmetics.