Forum Activity = Sales/Popularity?

[satch0922]

If you look at the set list, Randy played the Les Paul on the majority of the tunes. He wanted something that looked different than a V and Grover made the Concorde. Randy was not crazy about the access on that one and made some adjustments to the design. That is when the black one came in. Randy only had it for a short time before his death. He played it on maybe two songs live.

If you really want to get technical, those guitars were made for Randy because Dean blew him off...their mistake. However, the guitar was not a production model prior to Randy's death and from the history I have read, he was not really 100% set on either of the Jackson designs. It is well documented that his Sandoval V was impossible to keep tuned. It is also well documented (most importantly by Randy's brother) that the Les Paul was his favorite and his goal was to have the Jackson made guitars simulate the playability and tone of the 1974 Les Paul Custom.

Now, back to the topic of the thread.

[roodyrocker]

If you look at the set list, Randy played the Les Paul on the majority of the tunes. He wanted something that looked different than a V and Grover made the Concorde. Randy was not crazy about the access on that one and made some adjustments to the design. That is when the black one came in. Randy only had it for a short time before his death. He played it on maybe two songs live.

If you really want to get technical, those guitars were made for Randy because Dean blew him off...their mistake. However, the guitar was not a production model prior to Randy's death and from the history I have read, he was not really 100% set on either of the Jackson designs. It is well documented that his Sandoval V was impossible to keep tuned. It is also well documented (most importantly by Randy's brother) that the Les Paul was his favorite and his goal was to have the Jackson made guitars simulate the playability and tone of the 1974 Les Paul Custom.

Now, back to the topic of the thread.

Grover didn't simply make the Concorde for Randy. Randy came to him with an idea of how it should look, made a little drawing of it if I recall corectly. And I'm glad Dean turned him down because I'd rather play what we know today as Jackson over anything that Dean has ever made
I don't know if Randy was set on either of his Jackson designs but I'd say that the black/gold one must have been awful close to what he envisioned as the final version since we got JCF-01 made to the specs of his next Jackson in the pipeline. The Sharkies were reversed and it was white but those are cosmetic changes the basic guitar is like his black/gold one. He may have loved his Les Paul but I think he was after more than simulating its tone and playability or he could just have bought another Les Paul My guess is that just like his playing where he was trying to get better all the time he was trying to get a better guitar, at least for him.
As for the topic at hand its sales and popularity. Jacksons are popular with me and I buy them

[satch0922]

Grover didn't simply make the Concorde for Randy. Randy came to him with an idea of how it should look, made a little drawing of it if I recall corectly.

Like I said, he wanted something that looked different than a V .....

I don't know if Randy was set on either of his Jackson designs but I'd say that the black/gold one must have been awful close to what he envisioned as the final version since we got JCF-01 made to the specs of his next Jackson in the pipeline. The Sharkies were reversed and it was white but those are cosmetic changes the basic guitar is like his black/gold one.

Of course, because after his passing what else would they do? It is documented that he did not play the black one much because, like the concorde, he was not comfortable with it.

He may have loved his Les Paul but I think he was after more than simulating its tone and playability or he could just have bought another Les Paul

He did buy another Les Paul....guess you missed that....

[roodyrocker]

Of course, because after his passing what else would they do? It is documented that he did not play the black one much because, like the concorde, he was not comfortable with it.
He did buy another Les Paul....guess you missed that....

As far as I understand, there was another white one in the pipeline for him. I don't follow what you mean by what else would they do? as for his black one he didn't have it long before passing away. If he indeed had a white one coming next then I think he would have played it as well as the black one more since they were nearly identical in setup. And as far as another Les Paul, it never got played much if any at least not live. Still sounds to me like a discerning ear looking for something specific and not found it yet. Anyway, his idea of the Concorde/ Rhoads was brialliant as far as the rest of us are concerned. Whether he liked his Les Paul better than his Jacksons or Sandoval makes no difference because I like my Jacksons better than my Les Pauls

[pro-fusion]

I don't think you can make much of a popularity point about Jackson by looking at GC. While it's true they've greatly cut back the number of Jacksons they keep in stock (both USA and import), they've also done the same thing with Ibanez and Schecter. And they've never carried ESP (or LTD).

Frankly, for a metal-oriented player, GC is a pretty crappy place to shop now unless you are a beginner.

When you go there now, you'll mostly find a whole bunch of Strats and Teles (mostly Mexican), a whole bunch of Epiphones, a whole bunch of Lagunas that no one seems to want, and a couple of inaccessible walls where they keep Gibson and PRS guitars. Oh yeah, and a couple of lower-end Jacksons and Ibanezes.

Inventory does vary from store to store (a store in my area has a very nice wall full of EBMMs), but overall I don't even go there to look at guitars anymore, just to buy strings, picks, and straps etc.

I think if you were to see the actual numbers, you'd see that Jackson/Charvel aren't any worse off than Ibanez or ESP.

[satch0922]

And as far as another Les Paul, it never got played much if any at least not live. Still sounds to me like a discerning ear looking for something specific and not found it yet.

So the argument that the black LP was rarely played (as far as we know) holds water but the fact that the black Jackson was only used a few songs per night doesn't. Man, I am confused for sure. And you are right. He did have a discerning ear and we all know a man can't live with one guitar as his main axe and play every night. So, he jumped on a chance to buy another Les Paul even though he had Grover Jackson building custom guitars for him. On top of that, he played the Sandoval more than his Jacksons and we all know that guitar was REALLY rough (no truss rod..etc).

But the worst part of all is that Randy is not here to tell us. That was what this particular discussion (not this thread) was about....not whether YOU like your Jacksons better than "your" Les Pauls. (what kind do you have by the way?)

Now, back to the original topic of this thread......

[roodyrocker]

So the argument that the black LP was rarely played (as far as we know) holds water but the fact that the black Jackson was only used a few songs per night doesn't. Man, I am confused for sure. And you are right. He did have a discerning ear and we all know a man can't live with one guitar as his main axe and play every night. So, he jumped on a chance to buy another Les Paul even though he had Grover Jackson building custom guitars for him. On top of that, he played the Sandoval more than his Jacksons and we all know that guitar was REALLY rough (no truss rod..etc).

But the worst part of all is that Randy is not here to tell us. That was what this particular discussion (not this thread) was about....not whether YOU like your Jacksons better than "your" Les Pauls. (what kind do you have by the way?)

Now, back to the original topic of this thread......

O.K. let me simplify this. You say he must have preffered his Les Paul because he played it the most while I say that I'm sure he liked it but was looking for more/better as evidenced by his getting more and more Jacksons and the Sandoval. Is that better? Nothing confusing there.
Anyway, to answer your other question I have two Les Pauls myself. One being a white Les Paul Custom and the other a Blue-Teal Flip Flop Les Paul Studio. The White Custom is stock while the Studio has had a pickup swap as well as having been fitted with a Roland GK-3 pickup for guitar synth. Roland makes a bracket that allows mounting the GK pickup without drilling or taping anything to the Les Paul and I prefer not to make irreversible changes to the guitar
Topic of the thread is sales/popularity. I buy them, I play them

[MEX3]

O.K. let me simplify this. You say he must have preffered his Les Paul because he played it the most while I say that I'm sure he liked it but was looking for more/better as evidenced by his getting more and more Jacksons and the Sandoval. Is that better? Nothing confusing there.

Actually, that is confusing because it's not just some guy's opinion on an internet board, but Randy's family/friends and even Grover Jackson who say that the Les Paul was his fave.

I also think it speaks volumes that he Bought the black LP even when he was getting free guitars from Grover.

You think he was looking for something better than the LP and that's why he went to Jackson.

I could conclude that he went to Jackson for beater guitars to take on the road and he would save the precious Les Pauls for the studio ala Judas Priest using Hamer guitars for the road.
I don't really think that, but it would make just as much sense as your conclusion.

Hey, I don't think any Jacksons were used on Blizzard or Diary.
They got live use only and apparently sparingly at that.
I think he wanted another guitar with a trem and that's why he went to Grover. From there on, I think Grover wanted to get as many guitars in Randy's hands as possible to get the brand out there. Simple as that. Doesn't mean they are bad guitars, just that Randy preferred Les Pauls to his Jacksons.

I've read the links you posted as far as messed up guitars but what I'm saying is by and large Jackson quality is still top notch compared to other brands. Care to list how many guitars come screwed up from Gibson for comparison?

While I think it's valid to compare Jackson to other manufacturers, I was comparing Jacksons and Charvels of San Dimas/Ontario era, and even 10 years ago to the Jacksons of today. IMO quality has slipped significantly. Can they still kick out some good guitars??? Absolutely. But IMO they are having way more qc problems than ever. I assume you wouldn't agree on that either though.
No biggie. It's

[satch0922]

Mex3, thank you for your post.

roodyrocker, you are obviously a plant. No one could post what you did and still keep a straight face. Besides, the topic of the thread was "sales/popularity" however if you cared to read a bit further, it was in reference to the activity of this forum vs other forums.

Let's see pics of a Les Paul Custom with you holding a sign saying Roodyrocker......

[Newc]

Well, obviously the white LPC was Randy's favorite - it was his oldest guitar, hence he played it more, ergo it was his favorite in terms of "which one he used the most". That statement covers his entire career - Quiet Riot AND Ozzy.

Rhoads did not get free guitars from Jackson. He bought them just like everyone else.

It's not that he was looking for something "better" than his Les Paul, he had an idea for a custom V and was looking for someone to build it. Dean Zelinski stated that he told Randy "No" when he came to them about building his Concorde.

And he did use at least one Jackson for Diary. You can tell by the tonal differences between the two albums. It wasn't just in the tuning change from E to Eb. Jacksons have their own sound, just like Strats and Les Pauls do. Despite Randy's oversaturated distortion (MXR Distortion+ into a Marshall, with the 10-band EQ on top of that) you can hear a distinct difference in the tones of Blizzard and Diary.


Grover stated the reason he put the Jackson name on Randy's guitar: that if everyone laughed at the design it couldn't come back to hurt sales of Charvels.
It follows then that when he wanted the black one built, Grover again put his own name on it.

Remember, BC Rich were the only company doing odd shapes at the time. Gibson caught hell for the V, Explorer, and Moderne, so obviously Grover wasn't willing to risk a successful SMALL company like Charvel on a risky design that was even more radical than those three (two of which - the Explorer and V - had been accepted by the 70s, 20 years after they flopped).

Gibson weathered that storm, but Charvel could not have.

As for the black LPC, yes he bought it after the Concorde. Probably as a backup for the white LPC. He also probably wanted the black Jackson as a backup for the Concorde because of the tonal differences between the two brands, or maybe he was fully intending to replace his Les Pauls with Jacksons.

[satch0922]

Well, obviously the white LPC was Randy's favorite - it was his oldest guitar, hence he played it more, ergo it was his favorite in terms of "which one he used the most". That statement covers his entire career - Quiet Riot AND Ozzy.

Rhoads did not get free guitars from Jackson. He bought them just like everyone else.

It's not that he was looking for something "better" than his Les Paul, he had an idea for a custom V and was looking for someone to build it. Dean Zelinski stated that he told Randy "No" when he came to them about building his Concorde.

And he did use at least one Jackson for Diary. You can tell by the tonal differences between the two albums. It wasn't just in the tuning change from E to Eb. Jacksons have their own sound, just like Strats and Les Pauls do. Despite Randy's oversaturated distortion (MXR Distortion+ into a Marshall, with the 10-band EQ on top of that) you can hear a distinct difference in the tones of Blizzard and Diary.


Grover stated the reason he put the Jackson name on Randy's guitar: that if everyone laughed at the design it couldn't come back to hurt sales of Charvels.
It follows then that when he wanted the black one built, Grover again put his own name on it.

Remember, BC Rich were the only company doing odd shapes at the time. Gibson caught hell for the V, Explorer, and Moderne, so obviously Grover wasn't willing to risk a successful SMALL company like Charvel on a risky design that was even more radical than those three (two of which - the Explorer and V - had been accepted by the 70s, 20 years after they flopped).

Gibson weathered that storm, but Charvel could not have.

As for the black LPC, yes he bought it after the Concorde. Probably as a backup for the white LPC. He also probably wanted the black Jackson as a backup for the Concorde because of the tonal differences between the two brands, or maybe he was fully intending to replace his Les Pauls with Jacksons.

THANK YOU!

Finally, an intelligent, informed response.

[roodyrocker]

Actually, that is confusing because it's not just some guy's opinion on an internet board, but Randy's family/friends and even Grover Jackson who say that the Les Paul was his fave.

I also think it speaks volumes that he Bought the black LP even when he was getting free guitars from Grover.

You think he was looking for something better than the LP and that's why he went to Jackson.

I could conclude that he went to Jackson for beater guitars to take on the road and he would save the precious Les Pauls for the studio ala Judas Priest using Hamer guitars for the road.
I don't really think that, but it would make just as much sense as your conclusion.

Hey, I don't think any Jacksons were used on Blizzard or Diary.
They got live use only and apparently sparingly at that.
I think he wanted another guitar with a trem and that's why he went to Grover. From there on, I think Grover wanted to get as many guitars in Randy's hands as possible to get the brand out there. Simple as that. Doesn't mean they are bad guitars, just that Randy preferred Les Pauls to his Jacksons.




While I think it's valid to compare Jackson to other manufacturers, I was comparing Jacksons and Charvels of San Dimas/Ontario era, and even 10 years ago to the Jacksons of today. IMO quality has slipped significantly. Can they still kick out some good guitars??? Absolutely. But IMO they are having way more qc problems than ever. I assume you wouldn't agree on that either though.
No biggie. It's

You don't don't want to believe that a guy like Rhoads who was always after something better would think of having his own guitars built, thats fine. But I say that for a guy who wasn't rich at the time and just joined Ozzy who himself was on a budget after being out of Black Sabbath to be buying custom made guitars speaks more to me than any stories friends may have. At the very least he was after something different if not better.
As for the free guitars, as far as I know, and stated previously, he was buying them not getting them for free. And as far as not recording with them, I could have sworn I've seen an article somewhere where Max Norman said which tracks he used what on.
Your statement about Jackson quality now compared to the San Dimas era and even 10 years ago having slipped significantly is inaccurate. Like I said before I have many Jacksons from all those eras and I notice no difference in quality between them. My earliest is RR0370, a string thru Rhoads. I understand people are getting the wrong specs sometimes but the actual quality of the instruments has not slipped significantly. You are entitled to your opinion regarding quality, I'm basing mine upon direct comparison between the Jacksons I have and not a list of problems from the board. While I don't doubt those problems occured I don't think its any worse than previously thats all. As you said, its cool

[roodyrocker]

Mex3, thank you for your post.

roodyrocker, you are obviously a plant. No one could post what you did and still keep a straight face. Besides, the topic of the thread was "sales/popularity" however if you cared to read a bit further, it was in reference to the activity of this forum vs other forums.

Let's see pics of a Les Paul Custom with you holding a sign saying Roodyrocker......

And if you cared to read a bit further you would have seen the smilie next to the sales/popularity sentence I posted. Anyway, I did keep a straight face typing what I did because I see nothing wrong with it. You want to disagree or others may want to disagree with it, thats fine. Some things I'm serious about and others are jokingly put in. No biggie. I'm not even sure I know what you're getting at with the Les Paul Custom pic/sign thing.

[Aaronharmon]

Well, given this forums' TOP sponsor has severed his relationship with Jackson, that's absolutely true. I'm constantly running into music stores, hoping to find a bunch of new USA Jacksons. Zip. The closest place to me here in the northeast is more than an hour away that sells Jacksons. The rest are Fender, Gibson, Dean, PRS, etc.

I've been told by more than one dealer that Jackson's quality has gone so far downhill that they won't sell them anymore. It's really sad and driving people away from the brand, IMO.

I am not sure if I believe the Jackson's quality "has gone so far downhill"

I think dealers talk a lot of shit to sell guitars. If they don't carry the guitar (Jackson) you want, they'll jock whatever they sell and tell you Jackson = Suck. I have an 02 Jackson SL2H owns my 06 Washburn N4 Padauk and I have read countless reports that the 08 Jacksons are the shit.

My local dealer quit carrying Dean because he said they are forcing him to order 12 and he can't move them that fast.

Is he full of it? Who knows?

My guess is that there are a couple of things at play here.

1) Joe blow doesn’t have to go to his local shop to get a US Custom anymore. He can get it from any number of websites.

2) Guitar Center, Music123, Sam Ash, etc probably order crap by the truck load so Manufacturers have to cater to them (making them the Wal-Marts of the guitar world). They simply don't have the time or the recourses to commit to a small timer.

As I see it there are a few downsides here.

1) You local neighborhood shop who has been in business for 40+ years can no longer compete and goes out of business.

2) Your local guy (if he does manage to stay in business) cannot afford the large order requirements of multiple companies and therefore has to chose one or two brands to carry (making all other brands shit)

3) The Big box guys focus on cheap import crap that they can sell to pimple popping teens all day long

4) Out of the several hundred guitars at my local Guitar Center I can’t think of a single one that is US made.


As far as Dean goes, I would love to have a decent US Dean but there is no way that I am going to take out a second mortgage to get one. They are diluted if they think their US guitars are worth what they are asking for them. Either that or my SL2H and Washburn N4 are a hell of a lot of bang for the buck. /rant

[satch0922]

4) Out of the several hundred guitars at my local Guitar Center I can’t think of a single one that is US made.

Except for the Gibsons, the Fenders etc.....


As far as the Dean guitars, yeah they have some junk out there. But the Korean set neck '79 series far exceeds the bolt on Jackson guitars selling for twice the price. I would only expect someone to disagree if they own both guitars. I do.

-B