Anyone else want to see Jackson/Charvel evolve and go "mainstream"?

[wilkinsi]

I like my guitars pointy, but not BCR-pointy It'd be nice for all the current Jackson body shapes to be available as bass guitars too (I keep seeing that CS Warrior bass in my sleep).

[TVTiZtiK]

I personally think the closet thing Jackson ever had to to being able to compete in the PRS/Strat/Gibson market was the SweeTones (exluding the Jazz'R, that just looked odd). They sounded killer and they looked killer, but kept that "vintage" look. When I say "vintage" look I'm refereing to that feeling of when you see a Les Paul or Strat and you immediately think "Now that's a classic".

I think pointy headstocks and sharkfin inlays have a lot to do with it. Don't get me wrong, I love my pointys (no homo) but pointys just scream "metal" or "shred" etc. While that is attractive to me and the rest of the Jackson market I think it is a major turn off to Fender/Gibson players who love that more subtle and refined classic look of an LP or a Strat.

I think Fender holds Jackson back in that department. I think Fender doesn't want Jackson to put out high end guitars that will appeal to Fender/Gibson market because that could potentially eat away at Fender's sales.


Overall, I think Jackson should continue to improve on their current models, but should definitely bring some stuff that is going to appeal to the more mainstream market.

[roodyrocker]

I'm no marketing expert but since we're all sharing opinions, here I go with mine I like Jackson/Charvel the way it is. Trends come and go and back when things were reversed and all of a sudden it was no longer the traditional Les Paul and Strats that were the axes to have, in the 80's, Gibson and Fender didn't exactly abandon ship. They still basically stuck with their designs and came out just fine. Jackson is doing the same thing, keep that way and don't mess too much with these iconic brands. There is a reason Fender bought Jackson and why would they buy it then change it suddenly? That was Jackson fans' biggest concern at the time of the buy out and it turns out Fender left Jackson do what it does best so I say stick to it. Besides, there is no way they can design a new headstock that looks any cooler than the traditional Jackson pointy
Lets put it another way. Sure Ferrari which is a niche market isn't the most practical car. And certainly there is a much larger market out there for a car with four doors and a large hatchback for the masses. But Thats not what Ferrari is there for and neither is Jackson/Charvel
Sure there are new things they can do but I think those are new simple things. Such as, give people their reverse headstocks (although I personally prefer std. headstocks), more mahogany, maple, etc... bodied options, maple and ebony fretboard options, 24 fret models of existing 22 fret models, etc... That way you keep it traditional Jackson/Charvel but something new tone wise. I'd be fine with that.

[Newc]

The primary reason the SweeTones and other "not-a-Soloist/RR/Kelly/Warrior/KV" failed is because of the narrow-minded asshats who cried foul because it wasn't a Soloist/RR/Kelly/Warrior/KV - it wasn't "FUCKING METAL!" so yeah it was torn to shreds, just like the Charvel Model A and Journeyman were simply because they weren't 22 fret v-tremmed single-hummed EVH copies made in Glendora.

The fanboys killed them rather than give them a fair chance. They're not Metal? No shit?? THEN GO BUY THE FUCKING METAL MODEL, DICKHEAD!

Sadly I see the same bullshit with the Morton. It's a damn good guitar worthy of the Jackson logo. So what if the body doesn't fall in line with your narrow-minded ideal of what is and is not Metal? The Les Paul was originally used for JAZZ, and the Flying V was most-famous for its use by Blues players; what's the damn difference here? Simply because Jackson started with Metal it should only focus on Metal? How retarded is that?


I seriously do not get why the fuck it is so hard to understand that I and many others want to play a Jackson-logoed guitar in front of as many different types of crowds as possible - I want a Metal Jackson for the Metal Crowd, and I want a NON-Metal Jackson for the NON-Metal crowd. What the fuck is so damn hard to under-fucking-stand here?

"Heritage"? Fuck the damn 80s in the ass, they're dead. The "heroes" that thrust Jackson into the spotlight are NOT playing Jacksons anymore, excpet for Phil Collen and Rob Cavestany. Check the album charts to see how many Jacksons they're apt to sell to the average guitar buyer.

The new breed of pro players are too eager to jump to ESPee and Ibenhad because those companies wave some dollars at them. I'm also sure money was a factor for Scott Ian, Danny Spitz, Dave Ellefson, Friedman, and all the other bailouts. We all know why Mustaine left, but we also know he's still sore about being kicked out of Metallica, so fuck him anyway.


No, no one's saying abandon the Rhoads/Kelly/Soloist/King V/Warrior - ADD MODELS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH METAL AND DO THEM FUCKING RIGHT!

Another reason the SweeTone and such failed was because there was always something completely fucked up about them. The Jazz'R had an uncomfortable neck profile. Obviously this model was aimed at the older player who would have been playing anything BUT Metal, so to give them a neck that gives them arthritic cramps is counter-productive. Yes, the hard V is an age-old Leo Fender design. You know why you can only get that profile on a sig model Fender these days? Do you? If I give you a minute can you figure it out?

On the other hand, my NAMM display Jazz'R has a standard round profile that is very easy to play. THIS is the neck profile that should have been used. Had that been the case, I'm convinced the Jazz'R would have kept USA Select status.


The FIRST thing a guitar has to have is instant-playability. I had a 1997 USA SLS. It was unplayable because the neck felt like it was 1/4" wider than the nut/string spacing. Years later I played a real Lynch ESP Kamikaze. Same neck width. Same unplayability.

I played a Bent Top SweeTone. It had a neck as big around as my arm and a body the size of Lindsay Lohan's Crackwhorexic ankles. That's a bad thing.

I've had many Jacksons from the 90s - 1990-1998 - that I couldn't wait to get rid of for one reason or another, but most were due to playability and/or body comfort (or lack thereof).

I was never a huge fan of the Soloist because of the way the body fits. Yeah, they play nice and look nice and sound nice, but if it's like playing a porcupine or a brick with rebar sticking out of it, that cancels out the positives.

So yeah, go right ahead and do more Soloists. I'll not buy them either.

The SLS and NASL are similar in design to each other, but different enough from each other for me to motice, and certainly different enough from the Dinky and Soloist for me to notice.


As for 7-strings, Jackson had 4 7-string import models: the RR7R, KE7R, DR7, and the DX7. Unfortunately, since Vai was the 7-string king, everyone went to Ibanez for their 7s. When those bands hit it big playing their Ibanez 7-strings, they sold Ibanez 7-strings to the kids. Who cares if some 30-something was dropping $3K on a Jackson Custom Shop because he knew where the quality was? That doesn't do shit in the mass market. Ibanez moved to the top, and Jackson 7-strings died on the bottom.

I think in this industry in order to remain successful as a company you need to carve out your own niche.

Survey says:
[X][X][X]

I'm sorry, but that is incorrect. Were that the case, ESPee and Ibenhad would have stayed right where they were 20+ years ago - ESP making Kramers for the VH and Sambora fans, and Ibanez copying whatever everyone else was doing.

Instead, you can find Ibanez in everything - they've got acoustics, Jazzy archtops, traditionally-inspired shapes, AND they've got the shred-heads in the bag.

ESPee seem to be doing well with their Edwards knockoff line, which again encompasses more than just Metal.

So why should Jackson be the only one forced by its alleged "fans" to stay in a small sandbox?

[jairic]

The problem is, ESP doesn't have an identity. I dont see a guitar and say, that's an ESP. I see a Rhoads and I think Jackson, I see a Kelly and I know it's a Jackson. I see an MH model and I think... Strat/Soloist/Dinky?

Jackson is kind of stuck with what they have become I think (which is a great thing, right?). I don't think that an LP or SG or PRS style guitar would go over well. If Jackson can come up with something original, then great.

There have been some guys how used Jacksons, and never got signatures. I don't know that they are always "worthy", but Sam Totman and Corey Beaulieu both played Jackson, then were signed by Ibanez and Dean respectively. Maybe Jackson missed the boat with some opportunities.

[AK47]

Newc gets the idea.

What we are saying is Jackson should release a new model. One new model. We are not saying discontinue or change the classic designs.

As in new model we mean new bodystyle and look that is different and not something rehashed with cutouts and crazy skull airbrush design.

We just want something new and different from Jackson just once instead of the rehashed stuff we have seen for the last few years now. Is that so hard to try or will it forever tarnish the image of Jackson to the Metal players?

[TVTiZtiK]

Sure Ferrari which is a niche market isn't the most practical car. And certainly there is a much larger market out there for a car with four doors and a large hatchback for the masses. But Thats not what Ferrari is there for and neither is Jackson/Charvel

I see what you are saying and I agree with you to an extent. What I see Jackson/Charvel there for is for ultra high quality and super high performance guitars. I'd love to be able to purchase a ultra high quality/performance Jackson for Jazz/Blues. Sure, you can say you can play Jazz/Blues on a Soloist but c'mon. I mean yeah they'll do Jazz/Blues alright but nowhere near as well as a PRS.

I don't necessarily think Jackson needs to go mainstream, but I wish they'd put out some models to accommodate other types of music other than metal.

[TVTiZtiK]

The primary reason the SweeTones and other "not-a-Soloist/RR/Kelly/Warrior/KV" failed is because of the narrow-minded asshats who cried foul because it wasn't a Soloist/RR/Kelly/Warrior/KV - it wasn't "FUCKING METAL!" so yeah it was torn to shreds, just like the Charvel Model A and Journeyman were simply because they weren't 22 fret v-tremmed single-hummed EVH copies made in Glendora.

The fanboys killed them rather than give them a fair chance. They're not Metal? No shit?? THEN GO BUY THE FUCKING METAL MODEL, DICKHEAD!

Sadly I see the same bullshit with the Morton. It's a damn good guitar worthy of the Jackson logo. So what if the body doesn't fall in line with your narrow-minded ideal of what is and is not Metal? The Les Paul was originally used for JAZZ, and the Flying V was most-famous for its use by Blues players; what's the damn difference here? Simply because Jackson started with Metal it should only focus on Metal? How retarded is that?


I seriously do not get why the fuck it is so hard to understand that I and many others want to play a Jackson-logoed guitar in front of as many different types of crowds as possible - I want a Metal Jackson for the Metal Crowd, and I want a NON-Metal Jackson for the NON-Metal crowd. What the fuck is so damn hard to under-fucking-stand here?

"Heritage"? Fuck the damn 80s in the ass, they're dead. The "heroes" that thrust Jackson into the spotlight are NOT playing Jacksons anymore, excpet for Phil Collen and Rob Cavestany. Check the album charts to see how many Jacksons they're apt to sell to the average guitar buyer.

The new breed of pro players are too eager to jump to ESPee and Ibenhad because those companies wave some dollars at them. I'm also sure money was a factor for Scott Ian, Danny Spitz, Dave Ellefson, Friedman, and all the other bailouts. We all know why Mustaine left, but we also know he's still sore about being kicked out of Metallica, so fuck him anyway.


No, no one's saying abandon the Rhoads/Kelly/Soloist/King V/Warrior - ADD MODELS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH METAL AND DO THEM FUCKING RIGHT!

Another reason the SweeTone and such failed was because there was always something completely fucked up about them. The Jazz'R had an uncomfortable neck profile. Obviously this model was aimed at the older player who would have been playing anything BUT Metal, so to give them a neck that gives them arthritic cramps is counter-productive. Yes, the hard V is an age-old Leo Fender design. You know why you can only get that profile on a sig model Fender these days? Do you? If I give you a minute can you figure it out?

On the other hand, my NAMM display Jazz'R has a standard round profile that is very easy to play. THIS is the neck profile that should have been used. Had that been the case, I'm convinced the Jazz'R would have kept USA Select status.


The FIRST thing a guitar has to have is instant-playability. I had a 1997 USA SLS. It was unplayable because the neck felt like it was 1/4" wider than the nut/string spacing. Years later I played a real Lynch ESP Kamikaze. Same neck width. Same unplayability.

I played a Bent Top SweeTone. It had a neck as big around as my arm and a body the size of Lindsay Lohan's Crackwhorexic ankles. That's a bad thing.

I've had many Jacksons from the 90s - 1990-1998 - that I couldn't wait to get rid of for one reason or another, but most were due to playability and/or body comfort (or lack thereof).

I was never a huge fan of the Soloist because of the way the body fits. Yeah, they play nice and look nice and sound nice, but if it's like playing a porcupine or a brick with rebar sticking out of it, that cancels out the positives.

So yeah, go right ahead and do more Soloists. I'll not buy them either.

The SLS and NASL are similar in design to each other, but different enough from each other for me to motice, and certainly different enough from the Dinky and Soloist for me to notice.


As for 7-strings, Jackson had 4 7-string import models: the RR7R, KE7R, DR7, and the DX7. Unfortunately, since Vai was the 7-string king, everyone went to Ibanez for their 7s. When those bands hit it big playing their Ibanez 7-strings, they sold Ibanez 7-strings to the kids. Who cares if some 30-something was dropping $3K on a Jackson Custom Shop because he knew where the quality was? That doesn't do shit in the mass market. Ibanez moved to the top, and Jackson 7-strings died on the bottom.




Survey says:
[X][X][X]

I'm sorry, but that is incorrect. Were that the case, ESPee and Ibenhad would have stayed right where they were 20+ years ago - ESP making Kramers for the VH and Sambora fans, and Ibanez copying whatever everyone else was doing.

Instead, you can find Ibanez in everything - they've got acoustics, Jazzy archtops, traditionally-inspired shapes, AND they've got the shred-heads in the bag.

ESPee seem to be doing well with their Edwards knockoff line, which again encompasses more than just Metal.

So why should Jackson be the only one forced by its alleged "fans" to stay in a small sandbox?

+1 fuckin' eh

[Newc]

What's this Ferrari bullshit all over the place? How many people here own a Ferrari? If it's more than 3 I'll be amazed. Actually if it's more than 1 I'll call bullshit.

This has fuck-all to do with a sports-car that costs a quarter-million dollars and only has one speed. This is about a musical instrument manufacturer that's being limited to one very small and - in case you haven't been paying attention, particularly to your own personal financial situations - nearly-broke market.

There are very few executive-types who are also Metalheads who are also Jackson players compared to the number of executive-types who play other styles of music and buy other brands, so attempting to compare Jackson to Ferrari is...well, dumber than dumb.

"Do one thing, and do it well" is fine and dandy, but if you can do more than one thing well, don't you think your profits will dramatically increase? Is there a case-history of this not being a proven fact?

[VitaminG]

The primary reason the SweeTones and other "not-a-Soloist/RR/Kelly/Warrior/KV" failed is because of the narrow-minded asshats who cried foul because it wasn't a Soloist/RR/Kelly/Warrior/KV - it wasn't "FUCKING METAL!" so yeah it was torn to shreds, just like the Charvel Model A and Journeyman were simply because they weren't 22 fret v-tremmed single-hummed EVH copies made in Glendora.

The fanboys killed them rather than give them a fair chance. They're not Metal? No shit?? THEN GO BUY THE FUCKING METAL MODEL, DICKHEAD!

really? It's the fanboys not buying them that caused them to fail? So if the fanboys had bought a guitar that they didn't like, there'd still be a guitar that they didn't like in the lineup?

I would have thought that if the guitars were well-designed, well-built, and delivered a desired product to the segment of the market that wants, that it would sell, even if the hardcore fans of the brand don't like it.

Another reason the SweeTone and such failed was because there was always something completely fucked up about them. The Jazz'R had an uncomfortable neck profile. Obviously this model was aimed at the older player who would have been playing anything BUT Metal, so to give them a neck that gives them arthritic cramps is counter-productive. Yes, the hard V is an age-old Leo Fender design. You know why you can only get that profile on a sig model Fender these days? Do you? If I give you a minute can you figure it out?

I played a Bent Top SweeTone. It had a neck as big around as my arm and a body the size of Lindsay Lohan's Crackwhorexic ankles. That's a bad thing.

....unless of course, there's something inherently flawed in the design. Maybe it wasn't just the narrow-minded asshats that killed the Sweetone.

"Heritage"? Fuck the damn 80s in the ass, they're dead. The "heroes" that thrust Jackson into the spotlight are NOT playing Jacksons anymore, excpet for Phil Collen and Rob Cavestany. Check the album charts to see how many Jacksons they're apt to sell to the average guitar buyer.

Fender & Gibson are both about heritage & it's working very well for them. Rory Gallagher, Buddy Guy, SRV, Eric Johnson Strats? I can't remember any of them charting any time lately, and the kids who watch MTV sure don't recognise their names.

[Mikernaut2]

I think Jackson can do some great stuff when they really want to and think the ideas thru.

Some classy examples that still have Jackson flair.

[Ben...]

As a person who would fit the target market for other brands such as Dean (evil!), Ibeenhad and ESPee, I think that Jackson should not necessarily follow those brands but they need to introduce more models. I'm not talking $1800+ USA models. They need more imports and more variety. I would love to have a neckthrough import Kelly but currently the only way to get that is used or USA. Make it like the RR5 but different shaped. They also need to make lower cost neckthroughs. Most 15 year-olds don't have $1200 to drop on an SL3 so a cheaper Soloist would be amazing. An import stringthrough Soloist with a regular headstock and Sharkies, and ebony fretboard would be an immediate sale for me.

That said, I would rather they stay in Japan and introduce a few models at each NAMM than go to Korea and introduce a ton of new models at the cost of quality. Quality is the reason I bought my DK2 and not an ESP or Dean. The neck was flawless while the other brands had sharp frets and dead spots. I would rather pay a little more and get a guitar that lasts 20 years than get "better" features on a poorly made guitar that lasts 3.

[Dinky93]

As a person who would fit the target market for other brands such as Dean (evil!), Ibeenhad and ESPee, I think that Jackson should not necessarily follow those brands but they need to introduce more models. I'm not talking $1800+ USA models. They need more imports and more variety. I would love to have a neckthrough import Kelly but currently the only way to get that is used or USA. Make it like the RR5 but different shaped. They also need to make lower cost neckthroughs. Most 15 year-olds don't have $1200 to drop on an SL3 so a cheaper Soloist would be amazing. An import stringthrough Soloist with a regular headstock and Sharkies, and ebony fretboard would be an immediate sale for me.

That said, I would rather they stay in Japan and introduce a few models at each NAMM than go to Korea and introduce a ton of new models at the cost of quality. Quality is the reason I bought my DK2 and not an ESP or Dean. The neck was flawless while the other brands had sharp frets and dead spots. I would rather pay a little more and get a guitar that lasts 20 years than get "better" features on a poorly made guitar that lasts 3.

Great points made here. I agree.

[guitarbumb]

Im happy with the jackson range, nothing i would change really tho i do have a few custom model ideas but im sure we all do.

I do agree with the points about cheaper neck through options and things like that as mentioned above.
Overall happy customer

[Newc]

really? It's the fanboys not buying them that caused them to fail? So if the fanboys had bought a guitar that they didn't like, there'd still be a guitar that they didn't like in the lineup?

Yes, actually. That's how the American economy works, anyway. Haven't you seen the news?

I would have thought that if the guitars were well-designed, well-built, and delivered a desired product to the segment of the market that wants, that it would sell, even if the hardcore fans of the brand don't like it.

See Ibenhad sales for the rebuttal

....unless of course, there's something inherently flawed in the design. Maybe it wasn't just the narrow-minded asshats that killed the Sweetone.

Maybe the Narrow-Minded Asshat Coalition secretly infiltrated Jackson and altered the work orders to trick them into building it that way. Didn't think of that, didja Mr Smartypants?

Fender & Gibson are both about heritage & it's working very well for them. Rory Gallagher, Buddy Guy, SRV, Eric Johnson Strats? I can't remember any of them charting any time lately, and the kids who watch MTV sure don't recognise their names.

They also have a heritage that is not generally associated with spandex, big hair, and guys wearing more makeup than girls.
Well, Fender has Yngwie, but at least he's not doing spandex or makeup



Mikernaut: Those are pretty, but they're still Metal Geetars. You can paint an atomic bomb pink with big yellow sunflowers on it and it's still an atomic bomb. What we're trying to get here is something that's not an atomic bomb.


Ben: The only reason to make the neckthough imports like that is to slit your own throat. No, there should not be an import neckthrough model that competes directly with the same USA models (ebony, mop, OFR, etc). No, the average 15 year old doens't have $1200 for a USA Soloist. However, they can generally be had on the used market for less.

Also, you've got time. Wait, work and save the money, and then buy one.