Gentlemen's Agreement Between FMIC & Gibson

[The Rossness]

FMIC and Gibson have a gentlemens agreement not to produce each others models. That's why you can't get a Jackson explorer or firebird. I just find it kind of weird that Gibson owned Valley Arts makes a tele copy. Doesn't this break the gentleman's agrement? If a gibson subsidiary is breaking the agreement, why can't Jackson/Charvel? Also, I feel that one could argue that Gibson owned Kramer makes Charvel ripoffs as well as strat copies. Why doesn't FMIC realise the profit potential and follow suit?

[neilli]

Fender owns Hamer who make Explorers and Vs...

[The Rossness]

so why the whole "no Jackson explorers and firebirds" thing?

[straycat]

The strat body was never copyrighted by Leo.The headstock was thats why anybody can make a strat bodied guitar.

[straycat]

A firebird body is not very comfy to play sitting down the upper horn lays right in my chest.Cool looking tho'.
You could say Charvel ripped off Fender too.

[Jacksons Shred]

so why the whole "no Jackson explorers and firebirds" thing?

Because..

Firebirds...Are...


Fucking ugly.

There. I said it.

[AK47]

The strat and LP body shapes are so old they become public domain kind of like the 1911 hand gun so now everyone makes a copy of it.

Gentleman's agreements are for the 19th Century its a cut throat world time to compete.

[MetalHeadMat]

I know Leo recently tried to patent the strat body. About 50 years too late...

[Newc]

FMIC and Gibson have a gentlemens agreement not to produce each others models. That's why you can't get a Jackson explorer or firebird. I just find it kind of weird that Gibson owned Valley Arts makes a tele copy. Doesn't this break the gentleman's agrement? If a gibson subsidiary is breaking the agreement, why can't Jackson/Charvel? Also, I feel that one could argue that Gibson owned Kramer makes Charvel ripoffs as well as strat copies. Why doesn't FMIC realise the profit potential and follow suit?

Because it's about volume.

Fender cannot expect to churn out Les Pauls and Explorers without Gibson doing Strats and Teles. That's not talking the sub-brands, that's Fender-logoed and Gibson-logoed.


To make it short, Jackson/Charvel was at one time taken seriously by Fender and Gibson. Hamer, Guild, Gretsch, Carvin, Ibanez, Kramer, etc etc - those brands could not or would not face Gibson or Fender like J/C did.


Fast-forward to the present and Gibson and Fender own the brands that have always been their biggest competition aside from each other.

Valley Arts was a boutique shop catering to a fairly small crowd. They were never a serious threat in the volume department. Quality, yes, market domination, no. However, as I understand it, they're no longer made in America.

Kramer went out quicker than anyone - maybe 5 years as a USA model then shlepped to Japan and today are not a threat to anyone, especially when EVH jumped to Peavey.

However, Jackson has what those other brands did not - a taste of the Big Time. For a time, they stood as high as Gibson and Fender, towering over everyone else, even brands that had been around for decades. Gretsch was 102 years old in 1985, and Jackson stood over them.

If they could do that to Gretsch, imagine what they could have done to Gibson, who were still suffering under Norlin. No other brand at the time, aside from Fender, was poised to strike down one of the two giants of guitars.

That kind of power doesn't go away quickly. Jackson is the sleeping tiger no one wants to wake. If Fender wanted to make a move against Gibson, they'd unleash Jackson first. Gibson would respond by cutting prices on their top models and selling off their sub-brands, but those moves take time, especially since they'd be trying to sell those brands to Ibanez and ESPee (the biggest import brands) who would also be trying to maintain their market share against a flood of low-cost USA Gibsons.

That same flood would undermine Fender - why buy a Jackson Custom Shop Les Paul if I can buy the Gibson "original" for less than half? While Jackson has a loyal following, Gibson has deep-pocketed collectors. Money wins.

Gibson doesn't have a sub-brand that matches Jackson's potential. All they have is Japan-made and China-Korea-Indonesian stuff, and they know it.
They've spent the last decade raking in excessive profits by overcharging for their wares, saving up for Guitarmageddon, if it ever comes. The only way they'll survive a price war is to have a freezer full of money, which they have now.

Thus we arrive at the Gentlemen's Agreement not to stab each other in the back.

[AK47]

Because it's about volume.

Fender cannot expect to churn out Les Pauls and Explorers without Gibson doing Strats and Teles. That's not talking the sub-brands, that's Fender-logoed and Gibson-logoed.


To make it short, Jackson/Charvel was at one time taken seriously by Fender and Gibson. Hamer, Guild, Gretsch, Carvin, Ibanez, Kramer, etc etc - those brands could not or would not face Gibson or Fender like J/C did.


Fast-forward to the present and Gibson and Fender own the brands that have always been their biggest competition aside from each other.

Valley Arts was a boutique shop catering to a fairly small crowd. They were never a serious threat in the volume department. Quality, yes, market domination, no. However, as I understand it, they're no longer made in America.

Kramer went out quicker than anyone - maybe 5 years as a USA model then shlepped to Japan and today are not a threat to anyone, especially when EVH jumped to Peavey.

However, Jackson has what those other brands did not - a taste of the Big Time. For a time, they stood as high as Gibson and Fender, towering over everyone else, even brands that had been around for decades. Gretsch was 102 years old in 1985, and Jackson stood over them.

If they could do that to Gretsch, imagine what they could have done to Gibson, who were still suffering under Norlin. No other brand at the time, aside from Fender, was poised to strike down one of the two giants of guitars.

That kind of power doesn't go away quickly. Jackson is the sleeping tiger no one wants to wake. If Fender wanted to make a move against Gibson, they'd unleash Jackson first. Gibson would respond by cutting prices on their top models and selling off their sub-brands, but those moves take time, especially since they'd be trying to sell those brands to Ibanez and ESPee (the biggest import brands) who would also be trying to maintain their market share against a flood of low-cost USA Gibsons.

That same flood would undermine Fender - why buy a Jackson Custom Shop Les Paul if I can buy the Gibson "original" for less than half? While Jackson has a loyal following, Gibson has deep-pocketed collectors. Money wins.

Gibson doesn't have a sub-brand that matches Jackson's potential. All they have is Japan-made and China-Korea-Indonesian stuff, and they know it.
They've spent the last decade raking in excessive profits by overcharging for their wares, saving up for Guitarmageddon, if it ever comes. The only way they'll survive a price war is to have a freezer full of money, which they have now.

Thus we arrive at the Gentlemen's Agreement not to stab each other in the back.

Its not 1986 anymore. Jackson can allow Gibson shapes from the CS and it would not hurt Gibsons bottom line at all. Jackson is no sleeping tiger more like a sleeping kitten or old stray cat past its prime.

Now if ESP released the explorer again you can bet the farm it would hurt Gibson's bottom line something fierce.

The Gibson shapes have only been gone a little over 5 years and by removing them it has only cost Jackson revenue not Gibson or anyone else. Look at how bad Jackson was doing when those shapes were available it was not even on Gibson's radar.

Gibson's target demographic that would buy stuff like US made Firebirds, Les Pauls and Explorers are not intrested in Jacksons pointy headstock version.

[Newc]

That's entirely beside the point. Brand/model protection is top priority with all companies that have their own designs.

Despite the fact that Hamer and Kramer have been doing Gibson and Fender shapes for decades, they have never posed a threat to Gibson. Jackson did at one time, and Gibson isn't going to take chances, just like Fender wasn't going to take chances with their headstock on Charvels until last year (when they knew they could control it).

We can argue this point ad infinitum but Gibson will not budge.


Another point to consider: exactly how many roundhorns and Explorers were Jackson getting orders for 5 years ago? Were they doing more of those than their own shapes? Granted, money is money, but there comes a point when you start to feel like a whore making someone else's design when you should be making your own designs.

[AK47]

That's entirely beside the point. Brand/model protection is top priority with all companies that have their own designs.

Despite the fact that Hamer and Kramer have been doing Gibson and Fender shapes for decades, they have never posed a threat to Gibson. Jackson did at one time, and Gibson isn't going to take chances, just like Fender wasn't going to take chances with their headstock on Charvels until last year (when they knew they could control it).

We can argue this point ad infinitum but Gibson will not budge.


Another point to consider: exactly how many roundhorns and Explorers were Jackson getting orders for 5 years ago? Were they doing more of those than their own shapes? Granted, money is money, but there comes a point when you start to feel like a whore making someone else's design when you should be making your own designs.

Charvel750 I think has CS statics from pre Fender years I think in 2001 there was something like 2 explorers made and 6 or 7 Firebirds. I hope he sees this so he can post the actual numbers.

Where as ESP was selling hundreds of explorers plus the Eclipse model sold so well that Gibson made them modify the design a few times over the years. Gibson came down hard on them but with no actual lawsuit just ceise and deisist.

The only time Jackson/Charvel was ever a threat to either Gibson or Fender was in the 80's and that was hurting Fender's bottom line badly so they stepped in and put a stop to Charvel strat heads.

FMIC in 2003 just chose to stop FB, roundhorn and explorer orders. FMIC owns Hamer which still make roundhorns and explorers. They sell more anually of those body shapes than Jackson has in the last 10 years of when they were available from the CS.

The Strat, roundhorn, explorer, firebird shapes have been around so long that the trademark is now public domain. As for headstock there has to be a new court case for that to be decided.

[Newc]

And again we end up at the Gentlemen's Agreement.

Yes, public domain and all that, but that means Gibson is free to use the Strat and Tele shapes.

Gibson has the neckthrough advantage over Fender. They've been doing it since the 70s with the Firebird, and are therefore very capable of making a neck-through Strat-style, otherwise known as a Soloist.

As long as everyone buys the "neckthrough is better because it's more expensive" mentality.....



Yes, Hamer does the V and Explorer, but they do not sell nearly as well as the Gibsons.

[AK47]

And again we end up at the Gentlemen's Agreement.

Yes, public domain and all that, but that means Gibson is free to use the Strat and Tele shapes.

Gibson has the neckthrough advantage over Fender. They've been doing it since the 70s with the Firebird, and are therefore very capable of making a neck-through Strat-style, otherwise known as a Soloist.

As long as everyone buys the "neckthrough is better because it's more expensive" mentality.....



Yes, Hamer does the V and Explorer, but they do not sell nearly as well as the Gibsons.

There is no market for a Gibson "soloist" they tried it and it failed bad. Just like there is no market for a Gibson tele or a Fender Les Paul but Fender CS does make a set neck strat from time to time.

Jackson would maybe get 20 orders tops this year for Gibson shapes.

Jackson was not dominating the market with there Gibson body shapes like ESP was. Look at how often a US made Jackson FB or explorer comes up used on the market almost never because there were not many made because of the high price and lack of demand.

You are making it sound like if Jackson allowed CS orders for Gibson shapes they would sell so well that it would cut into Gibson's bottom line. That is the part of your argument I find absurd because even at the height of Jackson's popularity the Gibson shapes just were not a huge mover.

Pre FMIC policy was no production or USA select Gibson shapes were allowed but if you ordered it through the CS that was fine.

Hamer moves a bunch of Gibson body shapes and if Jackson even made those shapes available they would still not move in the same volume as Hamer does. That is why the "Gentleman's agreement" is BS and a internet rumour.

Kramer is owned by Gibson and they make a strat shape...

So the restriction on Jackson CS orders are a bunch of BS if you ask me.

[Grandturk]

There's about ten people in the world who like firebirds, and they're all on the internet complaining about FMIC policy. Go buy a Gibson Firebird, route it out for humbuckers and a Floyd and you're done.