Ran guitars

[velkan]

Ran is a custom maker. Of copies.

The know what they are doing is stealing. A customer can request anything they want from anyone. But if you are the company and you comply and know it's wrong, then you are a thief.

Do you work in a creative field? Is that how you make your money? If you don't, then this concept is probably hard to understand.

So if a customer requests a Ferrari or a Panasonic they should get an exact copy? Velkan, I want everything you own. I'm requesting it, so I should have it, correct?

I work for Cisco. There's a Chinese company called Huawei that copies all sorts of Cisco gear, down to the code in the software. Since there's people in China that want the gear, this is also okay, correct?

I can understand someone in Europe wanting an American guitar but not wanting to pay the taxes, shipping, fees, etc associated with bringing American products into the country. But Ran needs to understand that Moser, BCR, etc own these designs and make their living off them. If someone is copying them for profit, they are stealing.

Gibson and Fender didn't do much to stop copies. In some cases they didn't do anything. I'll bet anything that Jackson Firebirds are better built than Gibsons. If Gibson gives the heads up for Jackson to make them, I don't have a problem with that. Jackson doesn't rely on copies. Jackson can do other things and do them quite well.

Ran probably has the talent to do their own designs but they don't. Doesn't matter how big or small they are.

dude, you should really chill on that 'steal' argument... RAN is a company of luthiers that make CUSTOM instruments, they do whatever the costumer wants because CUSTOM is all about that! doing a one-of-a-kind instrument for the customer! How are they stealing? i dont need to work in a "creative field" to understand that a CUSTOM instrument its something that is made exactly as you ask for and it will be a one-of-a-kind instrument, and if a group of luthiers (that happen to form a company of CUSTOM instruments) can offer that, how is that non-legit or steal?? :think:

so, i have a friend of mine that happens to be a luthier, i want him to make me a King V guitar but with some extras that i cant find on a "official" model, how is he stealing? he is making me a C-U-S-T-O-M guitar...

from their website:

"Welcome to Ran Custom Guitars. Our mission is to create the highest quality electric guitar for the musician that demands the best.

Our instruments are custom-made to fit the precise requirements of each individual guitar player's wishes, but without the high cost you would expect see at this level of craftsmanship. Ran Custom Guitars use only the finest woods, ultra-high quality electronics and the best hardware made.
You tell us what you want and we give you the best.

Welcome to Ran Custom Guitars!"

[toejam]

How are they stealing? i dont need to work in a "creative field" to understand that a CUSTOM instrument its something that is made exactly as you ask for and it will be a one-of-a-kind instrument, and if a group of luthiers (that happen to form a company of CUSTOM instruments) can offer that, how is that non-legit or steal?? :think:

Because it's someone else's body shape and/or headstock shape. They didn't create it, so it's not theirs. Even the new Strathead Charvels have a sticker on the back of the headstock that says licensed by Fender.

[Venomboy]

Thanks Toejam.

So if I ask Ran to kill someone then by your logic they should do it because the customer is asking. Sure custom can mean anything you want but ethical means you don't steal others copyrights. My friend Rodney designed a lot if Mosers shapes. He gets a royalty on every one built. His contract states only Moser can build those shapes. He was hired and paid to create something. He did not give Ran permission to biuld those shapes. If another US based company built them then Rodney could sue them. I helped Moser create drawings for trademarks on his shapes. Thus is not a trivial matter. Why do you think EVH trademarked his striped pattern? It's a profit center for him and his family. His design, his legal right to say who gets it.

Ran can state whatever they want. They know US copyright laws cannot reach them. So they steal property because they can. They could not do this in the US.

So if a customer asks Ran for a Jackson logo and Jackson serial number they should get it, correct? You are making it seem that Ran is innocent and morals don't apply because of the word custom they can play dumb.

[Venomboy]

If your friend copies the King V shape and doesn't alter it and they do this for profit without Jacksons permission then they have stolen Jacksons intellectual property. Jackson can't offer you a Batman paintjob without DC Comics permission.

[sully]

dude, you should really chill on that 'steal' argument... RAN is a company of luthiers that make CUSTOM instruments, they do whatever the costumer wants because CUSTOM is all about that! doing a one-of-a-kind instrument for the customer! How are they stealing? i dont need to work in a "creative field" to understand that a CUSTOM instrument its something that is made exactly as you ask for and it will be a one-of-a-kind instrument, and if a group of luthiers (that happen to form a company of CUSTOM instruments) can offer that, how is that non-legit or steal?? :think:

so, i have a friend of mine that happens to be a luthier, i want him to make me a King V guitar but with some extras that i cant find on a "official" model, how is he stealing? he is making me a C-U-S-T-O-M guitar...

from their website:

"Welcome to Ran Custom Guitars. Our mission is to create the highest quality electric guitar for the musician that demands the best.

Our instruments are custom-made to fit the precise requirements of each individual guitar player's wishes, but without the high cost you would expect see at this level of craftsmanship. Ran Custom Guitars use only the finest woods, ultra-high quality electronics and the best hardware made.
You tell us what you want and we give you the best.

Welcome to Ran Custom Guitars!"

Clearly there's something called ethics that you don't understand. Best of luck with that.

sully

[velkan]

toejam: they make it for a customer as custom job, as a ONE-OF-A-KIND. The charvel thing is different because they have mass produced models.

Sully: talking about ethics? they have the best ethics towards the customers, they do what they request for a custom guitar lol


seriously people, what is it to missunderstand? they are a company that makes custom instruments for their costumers. They do not sell mass produced instruments. Yes, they have copied some famous body shapes and headstocks... because costumers requested it, because MAYBE, just MAYBE, there are people that dont wanna feed corporate brands that REALLY steal with their high prices for some models, and want a nice, handmade, one of a kind, highly QC'eud instrument.

just to clear something up, i'm not being paid by Ran, i just think its a bit unfair what you guys are saying about them (stealing, lack of ethics, etc) when they are just offering one of the best Custom shop services in the world of music.

I'm really sorry that in US custom instrument companies cant do what some costumers request (in terms of bodyshapes, etc) making them spend twice the cost to buy the "original" model and spend some more to mod it to their tastes, and theres the possibility that could not be 100% as they wanted it... i'm sorry that in US, "Custom" cant be THAT custom lol

[toejam]

toejam: they make it for a customer as custom job, as a ONE-OF-A-KIND. The charvel thing is different because they have mass produced models.

Doesn't matter if it's a mass-produced instrument or not. Jackson/Charvel will still make Custom Shop one-of-a-kind guitars. Ran are COPYING/STEALING designs from others. What's original about them? What part still don't you get? If a customer wants something from Ran, fine, but it's still not really "custom" to have another company's design; is it?

[ræf68]

Ok, RAN is copying/stealing shapes from others, but ESP still does the same, And nobody blame them:

http://www.espguitars.co.jp/shop/customshop/order/file/index.html

In the future I'll certainly order a RAN copy of the ESP amott Ninja in 25,5", and why ?
Simply because, Amott got the right about the shappe, and ESP can't accept my order. And it will be cheapper that a Jackson or ESP Custom Order.

[Venomboy]

Define "corporate brand".

If you have a business, you have a brand. If you are incorporated, you are a corporation. Put those together, corporate brand. Regardless of the company it's still a business, who exists to make money. Small or big company, they still exist to make money. One isn't more noble than the other based on size.

If one of them steals, then they are unethical. ESP, Ran, many companies do it. I think Ran gets the most crap because pretty much all they do is steal others' designs and they have been asked to stop and they still do it. At least ESP tries to do other shapes that they have created (not saying they do it well, but they try).

A friend of mine owns a small shop and built a BCR Beast copy or 2 for paying customers. BCR sent him cease and desist letters. It's their right to do that. BCR has done some shady stuff in recent years but they were protecting their property regardless of quantity.

Velkan, it's obvious you don't understand this so I'll just stop here. When it comes to somebody's idea, and you want a variant/copy of that idea, the idea isn't yours and it's just too bad if you can't have it.

[BeholdTheFallen]

Im a lefty and the automatic upcharge I have to pay for CS shops (including Jackson) is pretty ridiculous. Despite the cost I still put in a CS order for a King V design (twice) and they never got back to me. I put in for a Ran CS order (death warrior) and they got back to me right away, no lefty upcharge. Sure its a copy of another brands design, but if Jackson didn't get back to me what else am I supposed to do but take my business elsewhere. Is it right? No. But we don't live in a perfect world and at the end of the day if I truly want something I'm going to find a way to have it.

[Fender]

EVERYONE steals EVERYTHING from EVERYONE. You guys are going crazy about this, but what else haven't you considered stolen that you use daily. That Tv you're watching is probably a copy of an original designed by a company who first engineered it. The computer you use to post on is basically a copy and design improvement from an earlier concept which no one has to give credit to. Copy or not, they are custom made. I can go to any company and have them make a custom guitar, to my desires, regardless of what shape it is inspired or clearly identical too. They are no knock offs because they don't even claim to be. No where are they cutting into company sales. Fact is, they are in a market segment and in area where they PROVIDE musicians with options. We're lucky in America, we have a nice selection from imports to beautiful made quality domestics. So what's the point of bashing it. The shapes are the same, but technically a Jackson Dinky is a copy of a Fender Stratocaster. They may have removed the pick-guard, added two frets, made a different headstock, and an edgier body, but it's a copy to anyone who knows nothing of guitars. So again, Ran supplies musicians with the equipment they need. I've met some amazing musicians from Finland that swear by these. Their reasoning? They'd love to have an American Jackson or maybe a J-custom Ibanez, but the price is almost a half more than what we pay here, so where's the incentive. Instead, they can call up Ran and have them design , down to the last spec, the guitar they wanted to buy. It's a dissapointment to them still because having a Custom USA Jackson in Western Europe is like having a Ferrari, some guys do, but you don't see them driving them a lot either.

[toejam]

The shapes are the same, but technically a Jackson Dinky is a copy of a Fender Stratocaster.

No, it's not. A Dinky body is 7/8" the size of a full-sized Strat body, and it's not rounded.

[Fender]

Like i said, put them next to each other, and the so called apple didn't fall too far from the tree. It can still be said that it is a copy and when designing the Dinky, not even Grover would claim that it wasn't meant to be a modified Strat or superstrat. Admit i am making a point lol

[Vass]

The curbside lawyering is killing me.

Here's a question- could they produce what they make in the United States without getting hit with a cease order? I don't know but nobody seems to be disputing that they operate outside the US to at least partially avoid that. So if the answer is "no, they couldn't", case closed.

For those insisting that somehow it's ok because a customer requests it- don't confuse your opinion of the rightness or the wrongness of the situation with the law. You can argue all day long with the cops about why what you did is legal or illegal, but in the end, you're going to jail.

This distinction between "mass produced" and customs is, as far as the law is concerned, a distinction without a difference. It would only matter in calculating damages after the case was decided.

If Mike Learn made a graphic and copyrighted it and you decided to pay some guy 1/3 of what Mike charges to reproduce it exactly, is that ok because it's a customer request and a one-off? Mike might not come after you if he doesn't find out about it, but just because you don't get caught it doesn't mean you aren't violating his rights & taking food off his table.

[Davey]

Velkan, shut up .. you dont know shit about this stuff so dont try to infuse your silly logic on all this.

ANYBODY building ANYTHING without permission (doesnt matter if it's a guitar or a butt plug) of the person who copyrights or patents the product is STEALING. does not matter if it's 1 item or a mass production of items. THE END!

Ran made famous on doing high quality guitars of other manufacturers for a lot less money than you'd pay if you imported one.
do i approve of it? no
is it ethnically or morally ok to do this without permission? no.
have i considered a RAN because they could make anything i want for half the price of a USA select guitar? fuck yes.
would this work in the US? no fucking way.
do other luthiers do this? each and every fucking day, the only thing saving them is they are staying under the radar.
which is worse? RAN.. that copy a guitar design, apply the customers wishes to it and then put their own logo on it, or a small time luthier who does the same and then puts the companies logo, whos design he took on it, so it's a forgery.. as far as i'm concerned RAN hasnt gone into the forgery market and you wont mistake a RAN for a Jackson, BC rich or whatever, as long as you can see the logo.

it's not their fault that they saw an oportunity and a big market for it and took it. it doesnt make it right, or justifies what they do, but at least you can get a product similar in quality to a USA select for half the price. it's still not a jackson though, so you dont get the prestige.
but IMO, it's still better than ESP taking the design, giving it a twist, so it's juuuuuuuust acceptable by law and then mass producing that mockery.