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  • #31
    These are really complicated issues. Direct copies with headstocks, logos, etc. is of course a no-go. But it becomes really difficult when you start making modifications, like ESP does to some of Jackson's designs, and what Jackson did to Gibson's and Fender's designs. After all, is the King V not a derivative of the Flying V and the Soloist and Dinky of the Stratocaster? And remember that copyright also covers derivative work (in most places).

    There are of course several ways to protect your work. For guitars, I would say trademarks or copyright is the proper way. It is difficult to argue that a guitar shape is a solution to a technical problem, so that rules out patents (in most countries).

    Also, to measure the legality of something by applying what is really an arbitrary standard does not really answer anything. Why are American copyright and patent laws universal as compared to Chinese or European ones? As somebody pointed out, the Chinese are really bad at this and there are hundreds of examples of factories in China producing some product for European or American companies by day and a copy for the Chinese market by night. But the Chinese will eventually be at a point where they will want to protect their inventions from the rest of the world copying them, and then they'll have to obey the international rules. Speaking of that, Poland is part of the EU now, so they have to obey the rules too. Gibson, Fender and whoever can file a lawsuit there, if they want.

    And, for the record, I do make my living off intellectual property.

    EDIT: I just recalled that you can also use 'registered designs' to protect your work. I don't know how universal this concept is, though.
    Last edited by javert; 02-08-2010, 02:38 AM.

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    • #32
      Oh, I forgot to say somthing: I agree, the one copy thing does not matter at all from a legal standpoint (but from a practical standpoint, it may matter since the total volume may be so small that no company will bother filing a lawsuit). IPR has to do with the right to commercial exploitation of your inventions/designs.

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      • #33
        I am sure there is something we are missing. I can precisely remember reading, on another forum, an article that stated how it was impossible for Fender, Jackson or BC Rich to take legal action. Something about where the company was based. Now i don't imply that this is true, but if there really was a case, and it looks there is, why wouldn't there be a lawsuit? What's to stop them from slapping a cease and desist. They do these constantly to Luthiers,who eventually make enough money on customs to be a threat. They did it to Ibanez in the late 70's with the Les Paul copies. Countless others. I am just saying. Let's think about it for a second. Some of you are learning about them now. I first discovered them 5 years ago and it's my understanding that they've been operating for quite some time. I think companies like Fender or BC Rich have enough incentive to take legal action. You have to assume that there is some circumstance that prevents them from doing so.

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        • #34
          i think it has to do with them not being in the country of the copyright/trademark/patent origin.
          none of the big companies can enforce a cease and desist outside the US. ibanez still offers blatant copies of jackson/fender/gibson designs in japan .. or was that ESP.. doesnt matter which one anyway. they just cannot offer another companies design with their logo on it in the USA without making the changes needed for the item to be legal.
          now, Ran is based in Poland and i kinda doubt they make a whole lot of guitars and export them to america. it just wouldnt be profitable for the US buyer
          You can't play no muthfuggin' arpeggios on a tuba...

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          • #35
            did not bother reading others replies, this RAN thing is a no-brainer, if some people dont understand, i dont care, all these pseudo-lawyers make me laugh all the way...

            but i have to say this.... Davey, you shut up with that macho attitude son, this aint a cowboy flick and you aint riding a horse. Your post has been reported.

            Peace.
            "i dont need to pick the strings... i SCREAM at them!"
            http://www.myspace.com/velkansolo

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Fender View Post
              EVERYONE steals EVERYTHING from EVERYONE. You guys are going crazy about this, but what else haven't you considered stolen that you use daily. That Tv you're watching is probably a copy of an original designed by a company who first engineered it. The computer you use to post on is basically a copy and design improvement from an earlier concept which no one has to give credit to. Copy or not, they are custom made. I can go to any company and have them make a custom guitar, to my desires, regardless of what shape it is inspired or clearly identical too. They are no knock offs because they don't even claim to be. No where are they cutting into company sales. Fact is, they are in a market segment and in area where they PROVIDE musicians with options. We're lucky in America, we have a nice selection from imports to beautiful made quality domestics. So what's the point of bashing it. The shapes are the same, but technically a Jackson Dinky is a copy of a Fender Stratocaster. They may have removed the pick-guard, added two frets, made a different headstock, and an edgier body, but it's a copy to anyone who knows nothing of guitars. So again, Ran supplies musicians with the equipment they need. I've met some amazing musicians from Finland that swear by these. Their reasoning? They'd love to have an American Jackson or maybe a J-custom Ibanez, but the price is almost a half more than what we pay here, so where's the incentive. Instead, they can call up Ran and have them design , down to the last spec, the guitar they wanted to buy. It's a dissapointment to them still because having a Custom USA Jackson in Western Europe is like having a Ferrari, some guys do, but you don't see them driving them a lot either.

              ^
              this. The smartest comment on this thread really! thanks dude


              /thread
              "i dont need to pick the strings... i SCREAM at them!"
              http://www.myspace.com/velkansolo

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              • #37
                Originally posted by velkan View Post
                did not bother reading others replies, this RAN thing is a no-brainer, if some people dont understand, i dont care, all these pseudo-lawyers make me laugh all the way...
                Why the hell are you discussing it on a forum then? To call it a no-brainer is a gross oversimplification of the underlying issues. Your arguments like 'they do what the customers ask' or 'it's just one copy ' have nothing to do with it at all.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by velkan View Post
                  ^
                  this. The smartest comment on this thread really! thanks dude


                  /thread
                  No thank you for your thoughts . I am no lawyer and i don't i have any correct thoughts on this. If i was ever in poland, lawsuit or not, i would go play one and see what the buzz is about. As a consumer, i look for quality gear for as cheap as i can. That is not to say i will buy a 1000$ japanese soloist instead of getting a USA for 600-800 more. I know where the quality lies and the Japanese are very good, but ,investment out of the picture (since buying guitars, cars or anything is never a real good investment unless you restore), the USA has a greater resale value, if i ever become unsatisfied or a need of change. I think RAN has supplied good metal guitar players with some solid equipment and i commend them for it. Metal might be a dying trend here at times, but it is alive and well in northern Europe!

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                  • #39
                    I was just doing a search on lawsuit and Ran and I found some really old threads on other forums about them. From the sound of it, it seems that back in 2002, they offered exact copies of other brands' models, they even referred to them by the same name, like KH-2. They seem to have toned this down, as I don't find anything like that on their homepage now. I see now why people were upset with them. What I had seen on Ran's homepage was sufficiently different from what everybody else was doing that I personally thought it was no worse than Jackson doing Stratocaster-derivative guitars. Perhaps they changed their ways due to external pressure
                    Last edited by javert; 02-08-2010, 05:19 AM.

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                    • #40
                      Yeah that would be worst if they did a Guitar that looked like a KH-2 down to body and headstock and then called it that. Maybe that kind of thing flies by when you deal with 50 clients a year, but i guess like you said someone gave them a bit of a nudging.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by javert View Post
                        Why the hell are you discussing it on a forum then? To call it a no-brainer is a gross oversimplification of the underlying issues. Your arguments like 'they do what the customers ask' or 'it's just one copy ' have nothing to do with it at all.


                        i'm discussing on this forum because i'm a Jackson fan (although i dont own one yet) and i like to see and discuss healthly guitar stuff, I dont need this up tight shit from people i dont know lol i have one word for them: XANAX !


                        its like Fender said, everything its a copy or a "design steal", from the clothes you wear to the toilet paper you use to wipe your ass, i dont see people bitching about it!

                        If RAN offered or not exact copies and even named them like the original models i dont know, what i know is that nowadays they have one of the best custom instrument services in Europe and that is it. Why bitch about it? try something different, BUY one and be happy

                        BTW, check their 'sister' shop



                        kickass custom shop also!
                        "i dont need to pick the strings... i SCREAM at them!"
                        http://www.myspace.com/velkansolo

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          you really started to amuse me man..

                          still dont get it, do you. when you make a copy, without permission, it's stealing. there is no other way around. when that lawyer shows up at your door, with a letter, there's just no way out of it. you can not prove, for whatever reason, that what you did is right.

                          it's like this.. you make a design, or whatever. trademark/copyright/patent it. you offer it to a market, then i come along, take that design, make a 100% copy of it, dont ask for your permission and dont pay you anything for your work and sell it. maybe not to the same market as you do, but i still hurt your sales. what would you do in that situation? .. you'd come crashing down on the operation like a pissed off THOR!

                          i'm not debating the practical side of ran.. offering quality instruments for less, because they're based in europe and they're much more accessible. i'm debating the moral and legal side of it.
                          i know it's moot, because until trade and copyright laws of such nature span continets, they'll continue to do what they do. even so, i'm kinda cool with that, cos like i said, you wont mistake a ran for a jackson, but that still doesnt make it right :P
                          and you're still wrong
                          You can't play no muthfuggin' arpeggios on a tuba...

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I don't get it. Why buy a Ran guitar? Sure, it's cheaper, but it's more difficult to sell, and it has the wrong name. The money you save, you loose when you try to sell it. Or your stuck with it.

                            Funny thing BTW. The norwegian word "RAN" means "Robbery"
                            I couldn't go on stage with a guitar with that name...

                            If people like Ran, then let them have it. I've found my guitar. It's a Jackson.
                            '08 Jackson Custom Shop Soloist
                            '09 Jackson Custom Shop Soloist
                            '09 Fender Stratocaster American Deluxe Fatstrat
                            '12 Charvel ProMod SoCal Japan
                            '17 Gibson Les Paul Classic
                            '13 Gibson M-III
                            Taylor 214CE
                            Dean 6-string Bass
                            Morgan Ukulele

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by velkan View Post
                              its like Fender said, everything its a copy or a "design steal", from the clothes you wear to the toilet paper you use to wipe your ass, i dont see people bitching about it!
                              Again, that's a gross oversimplification. Much money is paid for the right to use other's designs and inventions and make a profit off them, including many of the products Fender mentioned--so those do not prove your point. Just because you perceive it as a copy, didn't mean the producers didn't obtain the appropriate rights. Also, patents, copyrights, etc. expire after a certain number years so that the invention can benefit the general public, so copying something can be perfectly legal.

                              As for the difference between a copy and something new, a patent, for example, must have an innovative step over prior art (meaning that it must not be obvious to somebody skilled in the art/craft), otherwise it's invalid. It's not just 'everything is a copy of every thing else'.
                              Last edited by javert; 02-08-2010, 02:09 PM.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by velkan View Post
                                but i have to say this.... Davey, you shut up with that macho attitude son, this aint a cowboy flick and you aint riding a horse. Your post has been reported.
                                LOL He told you to shut up, and you got all butt hurt? :ROTF: Get a grip.
                                I feel my soul go cold... only the dead are smiling.

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