Is ESP trying to copy JACKSON/CHARVEL?

[eakinj]

I always find these ESP hating threads to be amusing. First of all Charvel was basically a fender rip off. King V is a Flying V rip off, jackson did Firebird rip offs, and they currently do les paul rip offs. So Calling ESP any more of a cover brand then Jackson isn't really fair or correct. Daves Y2KV was a flying V with a jackson logo. The Kelly is a knock off of an Explorer, Jackson used to do explorers until they got threatened with legal action. Jackson as far as all that goes is no better then ESP and if they were not based in the US they'd be doing the same thing.

Glass houses and all that.

[Chad]

I simply like good guitars. Jackson necks shapes/specs are probably my favorite, but I play and like lots of other brands/models including ESP.

[Sephiroth]

I always find these ESP hating threads to be amusing. First of all Charvel was basically a fender rip off. King V is a Flying V rip off, jackson did Firebird rip offs, and they currently do les paul rip offs. So Calling ESP any more of a cover brand then Jackson isn't really fair or correct. Daves Y2KV was a flying V with a jackson logo. The Kelly is a knock off of an Explorer, Jackson used to do explorers until they got threatened with legal action. Jackson as far as all that goes is no better then ESP and if they were not based in the US they'd be doing the same thing.

Glass houses and all that.

Jackson made their own versions moreso than ESP did. and the King V and other Jackson models are unique enough for the designs to be theirs.


And if you want to cover all the bases, both the Fender strat and Gibson LP are based on semi-hollowbodies by companies like Gretsch

And your post suggests to me that you're someone who likes ESP.

Well one thing another company should never ever do is knock off a sig model of a dead artist. I've said it before here. That's just a disrespectful asshole thing to do, and ESP does it more than anyone else.

[Chad]

It's not as simple as ESP trying to copy Jackson/Charvel. ESP is a huge company with many brands and divisions that the average U.S. consumer isn't even aware of. ESP is quite an interesting company.....I don't really know of another guitar manufacturer like them. They do a little bit of everything. Just look at how many headstock shapes and brand logos they have for the ESP brand alone.

As far as I know, in Japan you can still get Explorer and Les Paul copies. As a matter of fact, their Navigator division makes Les Paul copies that are absolutely amazing. Then they have upper tiers of the regular shapes that aren't even available in the U.S......like their Original Series line. Their "custom shop" isn't a singular "shop". They have at least 5 shops in Japan that make custom shop instruments and word has it that they are all highly trained luthiers and the shops compete with each other to make the best quality guitars. A couple of the shops (Craft House and Technical House, I believe) pretty much make the off kilter, whacky stuff for the Japanese market that takes an extreme amount of talent to make, but not usually something I'm interested in.

Then there are the LTD and Edwards lines. BTW, from what I understand LTD is hugely successful in the U.S. market, but NOT successful outside of the U.S. market. I guess the U.S. loves cheap guitars more than other countries. That probably explains why ESP doesn't even bother to offer the majority of their highest tier lines in the U.S.

Anyway, I type all of that to say that ESP is a huge conglomerate that does lots of things. The U.S. perceives the company in one way. Jackson fans see ESP in another way. Guitar players in Japan likely see ESP as a guitar company that stands on its own and tries to make the best guitars in the world. ESP doesn't seem to get overly hung up on intellectual property and so forth.....they really just want to make some of the best guitars in the world. Agree or disagree, right or wrong that seems to be their stance.

[Sephiroth]

And half of those brands so blatantly rip off other guitars they're outright banned in the rest of the world outside of Japan. You have apparently seen their Japanese website yet won't acknowledge how blatant they are. It's like seeing a gallery of counterfeit guitars with different names on the head.

and ESP did try to a blatantly copy Jackson as they possibly could in the 80's. They copied the exact same head and the exact same dinky and soloist bodies to where there was little distinguishable difference between the two. Then apparently Jackson got on them ebcaus ein the 90's they jumped ship to use the "reverse-wedge" head they tinkered a little with in the 80's and is based on a classic Washburn guitar head, and have pretty much hijaked it from Washburn as their own signature head since then.


And ESP probably doens't offer many of their best guitars in the US because they'd be sued by the likes of Jackson for their Alexi Laiho Rhoads copy (which is more blatant a copy outside of the US) as well as other makers

True about them not getting hung on other people's intellectual property. That's why many hate them.

And for the money of a high-end ESP, I'd rather buy a real Les Paul or Jackson than a knock-off. That just makes no sense to pay that kind of money for a knock-off. That's like spending Ferrari money on a kit car Ferrari "just because they're trying to make good cars." Fuck that.

[Chad]

Make note of the last sentence in my last post: "Agree or disagree, right or wrong that seems to be their stance."

I don't necessarily agree with what they do, but just trying to show how diverse the company is and that copies aren't their only bread and butter. The weird stuff that comes out of the Technical House and Craft House custom shops is all original ESP stuff that simply wouldn't sell in the U.S. because of price and a different culture.

Check out this link:

http://www.espguitars.co.jp/oversea/index_gt.html

None of those guitars are blatant copies, yet a lot of them aren't available in the U.S. either. I can only speculate, but I think it's because of the price. They likely wouldn't sell enough to mess with it. BTW, it's worth noting that Drum City Guitar Land and maybe a few other U.S. dealers can sometimes special order them. But it depends on whether ESP has the time and wants to mess with it.


BTW, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe ESP ever did an exact Jackson headstock copy, did they? It was similar, but not the same. I had an old school Eclipse (tele style like Izzy played in the Sweet Child of Mine video) and the headstock offset isn't as abrupt as the Jackson version. It's straighter. Older ESP catalogs confirm the same.


With all that said, as far as ESP vs Jackson/Charvel: I've had several of each and generally prefer Jackson. I just tend to bond with them more.

Also, I own a couple Les Pauls and an Explorer and I own zero Navigators, EXPs, or MXs, so I tend to agree with going to the original source.

[toejam]

I always find these ESP hating threads to be amusing. First of all Charvel was basically a fender rip off. King V is a Flying V rip off, jackson did Firebird rip offs, and they currently do les paul rip offs. So Calling ESP any more of a cover brand then Jackson isn't really fair or correct. Daves Y2KV was a flying V with a jackson logo. The Kelly is a knock off of an Explorer, Jackson used to do explorers until they got threatened with legal action. Jackson as far as all that goes is no better then ESP and if they were not based in the US they'd be doing the same thing.

Glass houses and all that.

And the Jackson headstock is just a reshaped Gibson Explorer headstock.

[toejam]

BTW, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe ESP ever did an exact Jackson headstock copy, did they? It was similar, but not the same. I had an old school Eclipse (tele style like Izzy played in the Sweet Child of Mine video) and the headstock offset isn't as abrupt as the Jackson version. It's straighter. Older ESP catalogs confirm the same.

Correct, but it was still close enough. Carvin also had a headstock that was similar, even though it was thinner, but they had to stop using that because it was too close to Jackson's.
And when ESP changed to their current pointy, it was a rip-off of a headstock Washburn used in the '80s.

[SausageofPower]

Also, I own a couple Les Pauls and an Explorer and I own zero Navigators, EXPs, or MXs, so I tend to agree with going to the original source.

Agreed with you 90% of the time, but when companies completely go to hell in terms of QC (*cough*Gibson*cough*) and their prices continue to increase...I'm not gonna spend a (few) thousand for a dead sounding guitar with sloppy build quality just because it says 'Gibson' on the headstock.

[Chad]

And ESP probably doens't offer many of their best guitars in the US because they'd be sued by the likes of Jackson for their Alexi Laiho Rhoads copy (which is more blatant a copy outside of the US) as well as other makers

Do you have a pic of the Japan version of the Laiho? Don't think I've seen one of those. The Laihos that I've seen are so different from an actual Rhoads that I don't really have a problem with them as far as the intellectual property issue. As a matter of fact, I have an RR1 and love that body style. I HATE the look of the Laihos and wouldn't play one if it was given to me.

[Chad]

Agreed with you 90% of the time, but when companies completely go to hell in terms of QC (*cough*Gibson*cough*) and their prices continue to increase...I'm not gonna spend a (few) thousand for a dead sounding guitar with sloppy build quality just because it says 'Gibson' on the headstock.

I hear ya. If you order a Navigator, there's probably a 99% chance that it's gonna be an awesome guitar. If you order a Les Paul, chances are a lot less likely that it will be an awesome guitar. Navigators are expensive and hard to get. So are EXPs and MXs. It's possible I'd like them better than my Les Pauls and Explorer, but who knows. In a previous post, I mentioned that I bond better with my Jacksons, but I haven't played any of the Original Series or other ultra high end ESPs as I've mostly played Standard Series and 80s/90s regular production models. So I really don't have grounds to make a blanket statement that I bond with Jacksons better.

The point I was trying to make earlier is that I'd venture to guess that copies are actually a rather small part of ESPs overall sales. And some of the things like the Jackson headstock have been a dead issue for almost 25 years. So to get overly hung up on the copy issue seems off base IMO. I reckon it gets into how a person subjectively defines "copy". For example, to me, the Laiho looks like crap compared to a Rhoads, so I have trouble thinking of it as a "copy". Based off of a Rhoads? Perhaps. Copy? No.

[SausageofPower]

http://www.espguitars.co.jp/artist/alexi_laiho/index.html

I've gotta agree. I see the obvious inspiration they took from the Rhoads, but a blatant copy? Not at all. And I agree, I'd take the Jackson any day over this. It just looks awkward. (And this is the Japanese site, so I'm assuming this is what the Japanese model looks like unless someone can show me something else).

As for the ESP vs. Gibson vs. Jackson angle...the more competition the better, in my book. If ESP can make a better wheel, then (hopefully) it gives Jackson and Gibson more motive to refine their game. All I know of Jackson is their custom shop blunders in terms of negatives, but Gibson seems to be producing shit for 4 years or so running now. That's why when I went looking for a simple Les Paul-ish guitar this past year, I went with a PRS Singlecut Tremonti SE instead of a lower end Gibson or higher end Epiphone. I just couldn't trust that what I would get would be worth my cash.

[chrisolson]

I'm fully in the "Could really give a fuck" camp.

[The Guitar]

I think most Japanese companies started out making copies. Most being better than the original. As far as Jackson vs ESP, I have a bolt on M-II Deluxe, and compared to the 2 import Jacksons(PS2, RR) and my 275 Deluxe, the M-II plays better. I have not got my hands on an USA made model to really compare the 2. Now talkin' bout dead guitarist models, Dean has milked Dimebag to death. I think the few years they released the mx's and razorbacks, could rival the RR models!

[eakinj]

Jackson made their own versions moreso than ESP did. and the King V and other Jackson models are unique enough for the designs to be theirs.


And if you want to cover all the bases, both the Fender strat and Gibson LP are based on semi-hollowbodies by companies like Gretsch

And your post suggests to me that you're someone who likes ESP.

Well one thing another company should never ever do is knock off a sig model of a dead artist. I've said it before here. That's just a disrespectful asshole thing to do, and ESP does it more than anyone else.

Actually I do like ESP, and Gibson, and Kramer, and Jackson, and etc etc. I'm not a brand snob sorry.

The idea of signature guitars doesn't really fly either. Jackson/Charvel is making a Les Paul copy, and Les Paul is dead so they are ripping off a dead artist. Leo Fender 1991 what year did they buy Jackson? I'm pretty sure they were still making soloist, dinky's and other double cutaway guitars in that time period so that's ripping off a dead artist (And a true artist)

I'm not a big fan of the ESP rhoads copy, never played one and have enough real jacksons in my house that i don't feel a need to track one down. If one fell in my lap I wouldn't shit all over it because it's made by ESP, I'd play it first and judge it after that.

And for the record, I would guess Randy Rhoads could give a shit about ESP copying that guitar.

Personally I'm much more concerned with Chinese knock offs that have Jackson Logos on them. ESP having an ESP branded guitar that's kind of in the shape of an RR doesn't concern me at all. Really it's a matter of which one is made better and I personally believe it's Jackson. If someone else likes the ESP better then good luck with that. In the end a guitar is nothing but a tool to be used. I don't go around bitching that Craftsman screw drivers are being ripped off by some other brand screw drivers, i'm not really overly concerned about ESP.