Is ESP trying to copy JACKSON/CHARVEL?

[eakinj]

Here's another thing, is the Rhoads really a signature guitar anymore? They don't make the exact model Randy had anymore. (The black one smaller inlays etc) and they have made the Tuck signature model Rhoads so really in a way isn't Jackson shitting on Randy's signature model when they brand it with someone elses name?


And would anyone even give a shit about ESP making a sort of Rhoads copy if Jackson were out selling ESP?"

[eakinj]

And if Jackson was all that worried about it, then I would suspect that this would be getting Gibson sued.

[Sephiroth]

Dude why are you even on a Jackson board if you're just gonna rip on them while making excuses for ESP doing worst? You just don't want to see ESP for what it is

And NO ONE short of chinese counterfeiters has ever been as blatant as ESP

[Axegrinder87]

Jackson/Charvel is making a Les Paul copy, and Les Paul is dead so they are ripping off a dead artist.

Here's another thing, is the Rhoads really a signature guitar anymore? They don't make the exact model Randy had anymore. (The black one smaller inlays etc)

Do I need to point out the contradiction here?

[Nightbat]

I don't know know. Jackson built that Periphery dude bulb a custom in record time. Had to be only a month or two tops.

One?
Didn't Alexi want several, hence shutting down the CS output just for him?

[1994]

I agree that ESP are quite low on originality and have none of the J/C heritage. Jackson guitars are iconic and always will be. However, where there are innovators there will always be imitators and J/C needs to keep innovating to stay one step ahead. This is why my first "real" guitar was a Jackson (many moons ago!)

However, ESP are not low on quality. I have a Standard Series M-II and it's awesome. I also think that the Horizon is the benchmark double-cut archtop. What ESP do, they do very well.

[toejam]

Do you have a pic of the Japan version of the Laiho? Don't think I've seen one of those. The Laihos that I've seen are so different from an actual Rhoads that I don't really have a problem with them as far as the intellectual property issue.

I don't see it on the Japanese site any more, but the first Laiho models were the same exact shape as a Rhoads, and they were still making them for awhile when they changed to the different shape for the U.S.

[Twitch]

Well one thing another company should never ever do is knock off a sig model of a dead artist. I've said it before here. That's just a disrespectful asshole thing to do, and ESP does it more than anyone else.

I tried to avoid posting in this thread at all costs, but the above is a ridiculous assertion. Number 1, the artist doesnt demand a signature model. The artist REQUESTS a signature model, or the company OFFERS a signature model. Its by the good graces of the manufacturer and the clout of a given artist the results in a signature model. Two, Les Paul was very much still alive when the cheaper, beginner range of the Les Paul began being produced. As far as Randy is concerned, I bet he wouldnt care one bit that there were beginner priced models of his signature model being produced, in fact, being the nice guy he was probably would have been all for it. Dime, the same thing. Furthermore, and this relates to my first point, unless the artist specifically request only a certain number of their respective signature model be produced(ie. Slash), its up to the manufacturer how many and at what price point the guitar will be produced.

As far as "knock offs", you can only push a copyright or patent so far, and there are enough small nuances in difference between say, an Epi LP and an ESP Eclipse that the decision for which one to buy isnt cut and dried. They both bring their own unique features and quality to the table.

[Sephiroth]

I tried to avoid posting in this thread at all costs, but the above is a ridiculous assertion. Number 1, the artist doesnt demand a signature model. The artist REQUESTS a signature model, or the company OFFERS a signature model. Its by the good graces of the manufacturer and the clout of a given artist the results in a signature model. Two, Les Paul was very much still alive when the cheaper, beginner range of the Les Paul began being produced. As far as Randy is concerned, I bet he wouldnt care one bit that there were beginner priced models of his signature model being produced, in fact, being the nice guy he was probably would have been all for it. Dime, the same thing. Furthermore, and this relates to my first point, unless the artist specifically request only a certain number of their respective signature model be produced(ie. Slash), its up to the manufacturer how many and at what price point the guitar will be produced.

As far as "knock offs", you can only push a copyright or patent so far, and there are enough small nuances in difference between say, an Epi LP and an ESP Eclipse that the decision for which one to buy isnt cut and dried. They both bring their own unique features and quality to the table.

Who the hell is talking about beginner prices?

And the only thing the eclipse brings to the table is a mahogany body and neck with maple cap, and EMG's.............oh wait I can get that in a Gibson

[Twitch]

If its not beginner priced, its not a "knock off".

[Chad]

If its not beginner priced, its not a "knock off".

Gotta agree. Again, it gets into how one defines the words "copy", "knock off", etc. It's difficult to think of an ESP MX purely as a copy or knock off when one costs 3 times what a Gibson Explorer costs. When people buy one of those guitars, they are buying it for what it is, not because it's "ripping off" or cheaper than a real deal Gibson.

[Chad]

Some other random thoughts on this topic:

• It's interesting that Twitch mentioned the Slash Les Paul. His current Gibson signature model is a copy of a copy because his famous Les Paul was actually a copy made by Kris Derrig that was based on the original burst Les Pauls. From what I understand those guitars were expensive and very well made. Apparently, they are rare too and when they come up for sale they bring big bucks. I guess I just bring that up to show that defining a "copy" isn't always easy.
  
  
• As time goes on, it appears that ESP is trying to step away somewhat from the "copies". MX's become harder to find and more expensive as the years go by. Plus, they released the Hetfield Snakebyte signature, which is Explorer inspired but an original design. I have to think that part of the reasoning for creating the Snakebyte was to displace/decrease Hetfield fans' demand for MX's and shift the focus to something different. I don't really follow Metallica all that much these days....does Hetfield still play his old MX's live?
  
  
• Toejam mentioned that the current ESP knife headstock is similar to an 80s Washburn headstock. I couldn't remember what they looked like, so I searched for some pics. Didn't have to look any further than Wayne's guitar in Wayne's World. Below is a pic. It's interesting how ESP reduced the offset and made is straighter. That's the same thing they did with the Jackson headstock.
  
  
  
  Here's another pic of the Washburn knife headstock that is straight on:
  
  
  
  
• I've tried to find pics of an ESP Alexi Laiho that is shaped the same as a Rhoads and haven't had any luck. If anybody has some pics, it'd be cool to see them.

[Richard W]

Of course ESP copies Jackson, you mentioned Alexi's signature model, notice how his model sold in the North American Market has a longer wing than the one he plays (the one meant for the Japanese market). It's because ESP is afraid Jackson will sue them because, the ESP SV, is the same as the RR.

[Richard W]

[Richard W]

The above pic is the same shape Alexi plays, and is the same shape as an RR.