Short-Scale Super Strat Comparison

[VitaminG]

the recent Yamaha thread reminded me - at least some of the neckthru RGXs are short scale supestrats too.

[j2379]

were the hamer set neck ones short scale?

[xenophobe]

High quality mahogany like that used in my Gibsons always sounds great. Shit mahogany like that used on cheap imports sounds like crap.

I'll have to call BS on that. Wood is wood and a log is a log. The age of the tree and location of the cut is going to make more difference for your perception of 'cheap' or 'expensive' mahogany, not the actual species. Moisture content is going to affect this as well, so will build methods and design, as well as hardware choices.

[vector]

were the hamer set neck ones short scale?

1st version ('85- 87) set neck Chapparals were short scale.

[xbolt]

I grew up playing 70s Custom LPs
I now have a few Swans which I play all the time when I need a Floyd...just awesome...

[DonP]

I'll have to call BS on that. Wood is wood and a log is a log. The age of the tree and location of the cut is going to make more difference for your perception of 'cheap' or 'expensive' mahogany, not the actual species. Moisture content is going to affect this as well, so will build methods and design, as well as hardware choices.

Whatever Xeno.

I have a REAL 1956 LP and a REAL 1963 SG and I can tell the difference. Call it BS all you want. I'm speaking from experience.

[xenophobe]

Whatever Xeno.

I have a REAL 1956 LP and a REAL 1963 SG and I can tell the difference. Call it BS all you want. I'm speaking from experience.

Well then tell me, what's the difference between cheap mahogany and expensive mahogany if you're looking at two different wood blanks?

[straycat]

My fusion HH is mahogany and it has Gibson 490 R and 498 T humbuckers in it.
Doesn't sound much like a Les Paul but still very different from most Jacksons.
Very deep/thick sounding.

[ulijdavid]

Well then tell me, what's the difference between cheap mahogany and expensive mahogany if you're looking at two different wood blanks?

I don't know what tonal difference it makes, but I can side with DonP on easily knowing the difference. I have two 1981 Gibson Flying Vees. Both using Honduran Mahogany. These are the V from the era where the bodies are only 1-3/8" thick. I have a Jackson KV2T that is also mahogany and the Gibson Vees feel about twice the weight with half of the body thickness. I have built numerous guitars with Honduran mahogany and now usually build with "genuine" mahogany unless someone specifically asks due to price. Its very easy to tell Honduran from "genuine".

The great thing about mother nature is you never know how a guitar is going to sound until it is finished - regardless of the woods involved. But, I would like to stack as many variables in my favor.

[j2379]

honduran mahogany varies a lot in weight. the old mahogany BCRs were all honduran and from my experience most were a medium weight, but a couple i would call very light and one boat anchor. also the old original BC Rico's and NJ's were mahogany wing'd tho some were all mah., not honduran but not cheap shit. I alway thought they sound pretty damn good, Ive seen a few stripped its looks like quality mahogany. the later NJs and US series imports also mahogany but its much lighter weight stuff some people like the sound i also thought they just felt flimsy.

[xbolt]

Some stripped Swans & ProAxe mahogany pics...not mine but pretty slabs with sweet ebony boards...

[xenophobe]

I don't know what tonal difference it makes, but I can side with DonP on easily knowing the difference.

The great thing about mother nature is you never know how a guitar is going to sound until it is finished - regardless of the woods involved. But, I would like to stack as many variables in my favor.

Nice contradictions.

So what part of the tree is best for tone? Old growth big trunks, or newer skinnier trees, or somewhere between? Where should the best cut come from, by the roots, or near the top? Or somewhere in the middle? I hope you realize that different portions of the log will have different densities...

What are the tonal differences of African mahogany compared to Santos, Phillippine, Brazilian, American or Caribbean? Which one is the best? Is one trunk cut old growth Phillippine less desirable than a renewable growth American cut from the top of the log? For example...

Can you tell me which sounds the best?

That's why I call bullshit.

I have built numerous guitars with Honduran mahogany and now usually build with "genuine" mahogany unless someone specifically asks due to price.

Do you know that Honduran mahogany is usually called or considered "true or genuine" mahogany? So that sentence makes no sense.


EDIT: And I'd just like to add...

You know spalted wood? People think that's really nice, right? You do realize that the higher grades of spalted just means the wood is more diseased? I hope you realize that a really nice figured piece of spalted wood just means it has more of a fungal or bacterial infection? You wouldn't look at a girl with pus sores all over and say "damn she's a fine specimen", you'd know that she's diseased. But with wood? Oh look at that, all the beautiful lines, all that burl, all those super birdseye knots... that's all diseased wood you're looking at.

So diseased wood is better than non-diseased wood, eh? Not to most people. But that makes it higher quality. Yeah, grab some diseased steak, and it's better than normal steak. lol Some people love the tonal difference of diseased woods. That doesn't necessarily mean it's higher quality at all, but that depends on your perspective. It looks prettier, and if that's your judgement call, then it's better. That doesn't necessarily make it higher quality. Just more diseased.

Derp.


Look at this neck that I recently bought. Is this super high quality wood? Visually? Yes. Structurally? Since it's been dried properly, it should be structurally sound. Is it more structurally sound than a plain piece of quartersawn? Of course not. So, is this neck good or bad? Some people will love it because it's highly figured spalted maple. Some people will hate it because it's diseased wood and might warp over time because of the inconsistencies in the grain. Most furniture makers would either not buy this wood or would toss it the scrap heap because wood this fucked up can't be reproduced so it can't be used. Guitar makers and players love it. It's all subjective. And that's my point for posting this.

[ginsambo]

The thing is there are a number of tree species that yield 'Mahogany' just as there are loads of tree species that yield 'Rosewood'.

The fact is that most of the good stuff has in fact been used up and the good stuff remaining in the wild has preservation orders on it or companies are under world trade restraints to be able to legally use it.

There is vast difference in the quality of wood, even from the same species of tree grown in different locations/climates/microclimates, think about uniformity of annual growth rings, grain structure, reasonance and strength.

I know myself that softwood grown in lowland UK tends to be of a inferior quality to the European stuff or stuff grown at higher attitude, simply because the rings are more spaced out as it grows faster, so it's softer, less durable and weaker, also the rings are often very uneven in annual growth.
As for diseased and curly aesthetics, well that is just that.

Even the same species grown in different microclimates within 5 miles of each other may vary wildly. If fast and inconsistant growth rates have an effect on wood tensile strength as regards stress grading, then I am pretty certain it will have an effect on it's natural resaonance as well.

Also older guitars wil be more seasoned for sure. Hell my USA alder pro mods and my Japanese SL3 already have shrink marks in the paint. This must also have an effect on their tone.

If wood has no effect on tone whatsoever, then why aren't guitar manufacturers making high end composite, MDF or plywood guitars? I know the RR1 almost qualifies as a composite...(I saw it on that flamethrower destroyer post on here ) But seriously.

I would swear that if you did some sort of mythbusters resonance test on a plank of quality wood with even growth rings, you could set up a decent harmonic resonance, if you tried it on an unevenly grown plank of inferior quality I think you would struggle as that energy would not be reasonant and be enhanced, rather, you would get conflicting resonances within the wood that would cancel each other out. That harmonic energy is what gives it the tone.

I think in general, according to climate, you can make generalisations about how the wood might sound, but there are many exceptions, until you have the wood in you hands and can look at it, or until the guitar is put together you don't really know for sure, I agree with you there.

Even with a piece of cheap plywood or unevenly ringed wood, occasionally you get a lump that for some reason naturally amplifies the reasonating frequencies, maybe because all the rings although uneven are all in phase. Although now I am making it up.....I see no reason why the modern, expensive and uniformly made, good quality hardwood plys would not even sound better than a poor lump of 'Mahogany'. Whether it would be marketable to the masses would be another thing though.


As for Sapele and shite like that, I wouldn't even use it for making hardwood gates.
Nice birdseye neck BTW.

[xenophobe]

Thanks! I've never seen a piece of wood that diseased that was still usable. I had serious concerns when I backdoored it off ebay, but the neck has a very slight bow without truss tension, just how I like them, and it's a Mike Charvel neck, so I knew I'd be happy with the profile.

As for everything you mentioned, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Did one tree grow faster than the other? Did one tree get more water during it's life cycle? Was the soil and environment the same between two trees? When you're getting a guitar, you know none of this. Each tree/log is different even within the same species. They aren't all cut at the same growth thickness and you'll likely never get a cut from the same spot to compare. Without knowing the "sweet spot" for a particular cut of wood, there's no real way to tell which piece of wood sounds better than another until a guitar has been built.

So what is this "good" or "bad" mahogany? If I showed you 10 blanks of mahogany from different species, or hell, even from the same tree, which blank will sound better? The heavier one? The lighter one? The one with more figuring? The prettier one. That's what most people decide on which wood an instrument is going to be made with. And if you're judging which piece of mahogany sounds best by which one looks the prettiest, logic has already been thrown to the wayside.

In fact, the only thing that's really important is that the wood was cured/dried properly and is at the proper moisture percentage. Whether or not that piece of wood is better or worse than others as a tone wood? You're just as likely to know which is better by flipping a coin because you're probably going to pick your blank by how it looks.

[ginsambo]

I'd just get the one that was most even and pieces that are matched in terms of growth uniformity and density, that is all you can do, there is a lot of compromise, especially when it comes to figuring etc. hence I guess why caps and veneers are more popular, as well as the expense. I think I started my argument as I was trying to give an opposite view but somehow ended up agreeing with you. I think the key is how different they sound, not better necessarily.

Swamp ash seems to sound good and that is light, basswood I don't like, but that is beause it is often so soft, as it's fast growing, not because it sounds bad. Cedar is the wood of choice when capping a nice Spanish classical, but an electric guitar made of cedro (Cedar) seems to attract revulsion.

If you are going to get very anal about it, you shouldn't paint the thing at all, especially not with thick layers of poly.

I think an experienced guitar builder would have a clue as to a potentially good piece and a potentially bad piece. Personally I would use the same kind of stress grading view toward it, no knots and equal rings in all pieces, that would be a good guide I guess. What pisses me off is Fender not seasoning their body wood thoroughly enough, we all know that Strats are reknowned for neck pocket cracks, if not whole body cracks and the shrinking paint on my pro mods tells me something as well, but maybe they did it deliberately to instill that 'Relic' thirty year old guitar vibe.

You can only ask to look at a photo of the sides of the blank and moisture content or go on the companies reputation.

I think the crux of it is all about expectation, you get mahogany, you expect it to be dark sounding, sustain forever and weigh a ton, the last thing you expect is something bright and alder like, if it sounds like that, even if it sustains well, somehow you are dissapointed with it, because it doesn't forfill your expectations.