Drunken Credit Card China shopping.....

[ulijdavid]

With all of that crap that I just wrote above, congrats to VoiceX3 and Model1VH2 on what appears to be a pretty good deal. Hardware and pickup swaps are easy upgrades. Keep us updated as to quality issues. I am almost tempted to pickup a Kramer Nightswan Replica.

[Model1VH2]

I can see all of the concerns with buying the Chinese guitars. But, there isn't much "magic" in building a guitar. Their website states what wood is used and VocieX3 has verified that it's not plywood. At bulk pricing, "normal" guitar woods are cheap. I have seen pics of the Jackson/Charvel builds and have seen regular old Titebond wood glue for body and neck glue ups. Nothing incredible there. I have seen some UV cureable glues that take 60 second to cure. I have also seen videos of Carvin using UV cureable clear coats which cure in about 10 minutes.

Here is the time it takes me to build a regular strat type body:
If someone (like Charvel) has a body blank glued up and has a template of the body, it should take maybe 5 hours on a pin router (which is considered hand made). That would include the body, pickup routes, trem routes, electronics cavity, neck pocket, front forearm contour and back "belly contour. Running a roundover bit around most of the body and adding final sanding would be included. I would believe a company that does this as its sole product could better this time. Just for the record, templates and a pin router or table router, can be as quick if not quicker than a CNC.

Necks:
I can see where there is much more work in the neck - skimp on fretwork saves a lot of time. This may be some of the cost and time saving. I have read that both Dean (USA) and Suhr pre-shape their necks and let them sit for at least a month. Meaning, the neck is rough shaped and the wood is allowed time to settle. Suhr stated that he does this because he has a lifetime guarantee on his necks and wants to be 100% sure it does not twist, warp, etc. Using this added time, it should take about 1 month and 3 days.

Paint is one of the most time consuming because of prep work. High solids primers can cover up a lot of poor craftsmanship. But even so, primer can be sanded a day after application. Polyurethane base coat clear coats are also relatively quick. Multiple solid coats of color can be applied within an hour and cleared within hours after that. This is where companies have to make decisions on the added cost of clear coats compared to skilled labor. Adding thick clear coats reduces the chances of sanding and buffing through and requires less skilled workers. Thinner clear coats requires skilled labor to produce a "thin skinned" final product.

Anyways....6 weeks sound like a good number if someone is properly "tooled" for the job and is able to have a work force jump on it immediately. In the case of Jackson/Charvel, I would hope it is just a backlog that produces those crazy wait times. I would not feel that I am getting a better quality instrument if the builder is "properly" inserting 1 fret a week. I cannot understand how a complete house can be built from scratch in 8 months, but it takes over 2 years to build a guitar. It has to be a large backlog - Right????

Excellent post.

[toejam]

Carvins lead time is 6-8 weeks last time I looked.

My Carvin 7-string took 9 weeks back in 2011. I just ordered an 8-string through them yesterday, and I was told about 8 weeks, so we'll see ...

[VoiceX3]

I'm not seeing how the "built and delivered in 6 weeks" is something to crow about repeatedly. Yeah, it's fast, but there's a concern for quality-over-time. While I don't expect them to age well over the next 10 years, my immediate concern would be whether they'll start falling apart in 6 months or less. Fretboard expansion, frets lifting, finish flaking off in chunks, green wood deciding it wants to change its shape, truss rod deciding it doesn't want to work anymore, and of course being able to bend a D-Major up a full step just by flexing your wrist back.

Newc, I understand where you're coming from.... But these were never meant to be anything more than just fun projects to replace stuff like my performer rhoads and beater dx dinky. When you're frustrated waiting on insurance and contractors you need an outlet.....these are mine. I will let everyone know how they age, so far they are surprisingly well constructed. I'll let everyone know if they start falling apart.

How are the inlays on these? Can you tell what kind of material they used, and how well were they installed?

I don't have any on the Kelly, and the Chibson has plastic inlays. They are very smooth and even with the wood. The logo is MOP.

Carvins lead time is 6-8 weeks last time I looked. Who knows what these Chinese builders are using for materials.

They sent pics thruout the build. they both appear to be mahogany/cedro with 1/4 inch flame maple tops. The Chibson is 1 piece of wood with no scarf joint and the Kelly is 3 piece with a scarf joint headstock.

My Carvin 7-string took 9 weeks back in 2011. I just ordered an 8-string through them yesterday, and I was told about 8 weeks, so we'll see ...

Carvin has always had good turnaround with very high quality, but I don't think these are that kind of quality...but these are turning out to be very nice cheap toys.

[toejam]

Yeah, definitely don't think they'd be up to USA quality, but some Chinese guitars are actually pretty decent these days. Have fun and enjoy yours!

[sixx_ gunner]

where did you get these ones from?

[Jayster]

I bought my son a Chibson for his 7th b day... Zakk Wyld Camo, I hated the fretboard on it(but don't really like maple anyway(the maple was heavily clearcoated)). Aside from that, I was impressed with what I got, sure the pup's/electronics were shit but that was easy enough to fix....

[markD]

I don't get the Chinese guitar hate. ever hear of epiphone? they are made in china. so is squire. both of those brands are known for putting out good quality instruments at a good price.

I recently joined a country band. instead of gigging my all original 62 strat, I went out and bought a MIM and a couple of squire classic vibe strats - all used. the Chinese CV strats are just as good as the MIM. in fact, for tomorrow night's gig I am bringing my candy red classic vibe strat. it sounds great through my marshall rig....

[pianoguyy]

I don't get the Chinese guitar hate.

Saying something is Chinese doesn't always mean that it was made it China. Well, wait, I guess its the opposite. Made in China isn't the same as saying that its Chinese.

Its one thing to buy a brand name who has a product that was made in any particular place. Its another thing to buy a cheap knockoff. The cheap knockoffs is where the 'chinese hate' comes from. Ibanez and Gibson being made in China is different then the Chibanez and Chibson.

[Model1VH2]

Saying something is Chinese doesn't always mean that it was made it China. Well, wait, I guess its the opposite. Made in China isn't the same as saying that its Chinese.

Its one thing to buy a brand name who has a product that was made in any particular place. Its another thing to buy a cheap knockoff. The cheap knockoffs is where the 'chinese hate' comes from. Ibanez and Gibson being made in China is different then the Chibanez and Chibson.

There has been speculation as to where these ""cheap knockoffs" come from.
Some owners have reported guitars coming with pickups stamped "Epiphone".
I'm not saying they are made in the same factory(s) but I haven't seen any proof to say that they're not either. Just say'n.

I think the "hate" comes from all of those folks who are trying to pass off these replicas as the real deal and/or those who have spent thousands of dollars on that "one off" only to discover that there are knockoffs out there. JMO

I spent some time with my Chinese Concorde last night.
I was going to swap out the nut for a bone nut and do some final "tweaking" to the setup.
When I removed the original nut, I discovered it was in fact BONE!

Surprisingly, I had no issues with the original nut other than the fact that it was a little high.
There was no binding or anything like that, so I just reshaped it and brought down the action from the first fret. Since I had already leveled the high frets, fixing the nut allowed me to bring the action down really low with absolutely no buzz. I'm not saying that I'm impressed with the guitar, how it came. They did in fact "cut corners" on a lot of things in order to keep the cost down and to speed production, but that was to be expected and it wasn't anything that couldn't be fixed or replaced. Yes, it's a "cheap knockoff" but it's a cheap knockoff that looks good, plays great, and sounds REALLY REALLY good.

[h.e.l.shane]

I used to think of them as a "backup" guitar to take to a really crappy gig in the middle of winter or a neat toy....

BUT...

I have completely sworn off of them as far as actually owning them or having my shop affiliated with them unless they have been "de-gibbied"...

I had a kid bring one in for me to set up last fall, He knew it was a fake.. I told him he should really take the serial number and the made in USA off the back of the headstock at least and to NEVER try and sell it as real becasue he'd get his ass in a sling.. I felt iffy even working on it because i didn't know the kid....
and then I see the SAME guitar back in my shop a month later with a DIFFERENT kid..... who paid $900 for it thinking it was a real gibby..

Needless to say, i got involved in a MESS and almost ended up in court until the first kid agreed to give the kid he ripped off his money back, the local cops got involved, but thankfully it didn't go any further than that....... and as part of the agreement the first kid was forced to take a belt sander to the headstock...

ugh... that's a blood pressure booster i didn;t need!

[h.e.l.shane]

I used to think of them as a "backup" guitar to take to a really crappy gig in the middle of winter or a neat toy....

BUT...

I have completely sworn off of them as far as actually owning them or having my shop affiliated with them unless they have been "de-gibbied"...

I had a kid bring one in for me to set up last fall, He knew it was a fake.. I told him he should really take the serial number and the made in USA off the back of the headstock at least and to NEVER try and sell it as real becasue he'd get his ass in a sling.. I felt iffy even working on it..
and then I see the SAME guitar back in my shop a month later with a DIFFERENT kid..... who paid $900 for it thinking it was a real gibby..

Neddless to say, i got involved in a MESS and almost ended up in court until the first kid agreed to give the kid he ripped off his money back, the local cops got involved, but thankfully it didn;t go any further than that....... and as part of the agreement the first kid was forced to take a belt sander to the headstock...

[Model1VH2]

I used to think of them as a "backup" guitar to take to a really crappy gig in the middle of winter or a neat toy....

BUT...

I have completely sworn off of them as far as actually owning them or having my shop affiliated with them unless they have been "de-gibbied"...

I had a kid bring one in for me to set up last fall, He knew it was a fake.. I told him he should really take the serial number and the made in USA off the back of the headstock at least and to NEVER try and sell it as real becasue he'd get his ass in a sling.. I felt iffy even working on it..
and then I see the SAME guitar back in my shop a month later with a DIFFERENT kid..... who paid $900 for it thinking it was a real gibby..

Neddless to say, i got involved in a MESS and almost ended up in court until the first kid agreed to give the kid he ripped off his money back, the local cops got involved, but thankfully it didn;t go any further than that....... and as part of the agreement the first kid was forced to take a belt sander to the headstock...

Yep ...

I think the "hate" comes from all of those folks who are trying to pass off these replicas as the real deal ...

[pianoguyy]

There has been speculation as to where these ""cheap knockoffs" come from.

Funny that you should mention that.
The subject matter was actually part of the post that I decided to erase.


I can 100% guarantee that there are some 'legitimate' knockoffs. Meaning, they are built by the same people with the same materials in the same factory to the same specs. Maybe they were made by a guy off the clock. Maybe they were 'defects' that were sent to the trash but never made it there. Any number of scenarios. Who amongst us has never taken anything from their place of business, even if just a pen or using their pc and internet to do your taxes.
The difference is where the money goes. If Gibson built for it, but Long WO steals it and sells it, it is a black market item. Maybe not a knockoff, but it has lost its legitimacy. --- A stolen Van Gogh is still a Van Gogh, right? Essentially, the 'real' ones are stolen property.

Legitimate illegitimate guitars are far a few between. Simply because of volume. Even physical size makes it hard to steal.
The company that churns out millions of iphones can justify a hundred thousand being missing. On the other hand, the guitar maker that makes ten thousand...
The employees that make iphones can slip one in their pocket unnoticed. Is that a guitar in your pocket or are you happy to see me.


And then you have the 'knockoffs' that are trademark issues. Where a chinese company can legally make products with the D'addario label even though they are not associated with D'addario in any way. Whether they are high quality or not, they are legally permitted.



Without hijacking the thread and repeating what has been discussed many times...
There are any number of possibilities. Good stuff. Cheap stuff. Stolen stuff.
I even know a guy that sells fakes. His sales pitch is 'its a fake, but it is a very good fake'. And that allows him to sell his $100 Alibaba guitar for $500. Its a far cry from the $3000 unit, but he was honest 'it was a fake'.

[clifffclaven]

Like I said in the other thread... Fuck these Chinese guitars. When someone here gets burned, everyone will change their tune.