Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *&#%$@

[Jack Napalm]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

I see that EASTONGUITARSSUCKS.COM is available.

[Genebaby]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

[ QUOTE ]
I sent a message to Lee regarding his customer service on this and what my opinion of this was as a past customer of his on several occasions. Based on what has been posted in this thread about Lee regarding this I wasn't expecting much. Instead I got what I think is a thoughtful and courteous response. Here is his complete e-mail to me. Lee specifically said it was fine to post any or all of his message. So here it is:

Tim:

I've actually gone so far out of my way to handle Vic's situation that this is becoming ridiculous. He gets the guitar, waits 6 -7 months, and THEN complains about aspects that are simply not defective. But this is typical of him. He complains, whines, and then comment many months after he gets something. He then bashes GMW with zero feedback from me. He basically cherry picks what he wants to complain about and then I'm left to try to help him with absolutely zero thanks in return.

But specifically Tim, and at absolutely zero cost to him, I performed the following work in an attempt to make him happy the first time the issue of those sharkfin inlays came up:

Disassembled the guitar
Routed for a Floyd recess (which just like those sharkfin inlays, he ordered AFTER the body was done and painted. This is typical of Vic)
Repainted the guitar, including the recess
Milled/dressed the frets
Reassembled the guitar with a full set up
Shipped the guitar back to Australia

ALL of this was done at my cost. No charges were made to Vic. He wanted a new neck because the inlays were about 1 mm different than those used by Jackson, and I simply refused to accommodate that request because it was unreasonable, and unwarranted. We never stated our inlays to be identical to a Jackson. If he wanted a Jackson, he should have bought a Jackson.

Next, because I simply don't trust this guy at all, I had THREE players from the JCF (Curt Dudley, Alex Johnson and Jon Shoemaker) come to the shop, inspect and play the guitar after the above work was performed. They were then asked to critique it with zero pressure from me. It was unanimous. The guitar played great, and looked great. All three JCF members agreed that Vic's complaints were completely unwarranted. So I shipped it back and heard nothing for 7- 8 months until now. Not even a thank you for my efforts to resolve the situation. Then he complains now, many months later.

Next, this guitar was originally ordered with dot inlays. Of course, after the bridseye neck was made, he wants sharkfins. So we simply pulled the frets, milled down the maple and installed a lam top which can't be seen under the black neck binding. This is a perfectly acceptable practice and I can tell you that Jackson has done this many times to correct fretboard "issues". The fact there's a few small gaps on the sides, and the guitar played great when it left (again, fully verified by three other JCF members), I still find his complaints to be without merit.

So Tim, this represents my side of the story. Should this not be acceptable, then I guess the other two GMW guitars you have must also be suspect. Given that we've produced thousand upon thousands of guitars, and my feedback rating is near perfect, I stand by my work. You have two of my guitars and I haven't heard any complaints regarding those two instruments.

Then Vic has the gall to install a fake Jackson logo on a guitar he paid $1600 for, and would have cost him about $1000 more from Jackson. So for what he paid for the guitar, he got a great instrument. he isn't paying me enough for this guitar to be complaining. The small gaps under the binding are immaterial and do not affect the playability whatsoever. Obviously, both Vic and I wish he had simply ordered a Jackson if he wanted a Jackson. Coming to us for a guitar the Custom Shop would build makes zero sense. But I took his order, which I definitely regret.

But I treat my customers great. I have a shop stuffed full of orders to prove it. Just because Vic gets to cherry pic through all of his complaints, I can't stop that. So if you feel he's correct on this issue, then by all means, buy elsewhere. But if I though Vic had a legitimate complaint, I'd rectify the situation, just as I did with ALL of the extra work I performed above.....free. But in this case, I don't think he'll ever be happy. So I told him he should simply sell the guitar and buy a "real" Jackson, rather than attempt to use my work to counterfeit a factory instrument . Besides, why did Vic pull the neck binding? This makes zero sense.

Finally, feel free to post any or all of the above on the JCF. If my explanation isn't sufficient, then there's not much I can do. And if you feel that you don't want to place another order, that's your decision. But I run my business very ethically and I stand behind my product. If someone isn't happy or satisfied that is indeed the case, they need to buy elsewhere.

Lee


[/ QUOTE ]

I love this, Lee always tries to defend the undefendable, himself.

For gods sake people, read the first link in my first thread, you'll see that the guitar came with numerous issues, and only when I could not get the frets to hold did I begin contemplating the mammoth task of sending the guitar back. So once it was going back, I wanted everything fixed, the shim in the neck pocket, the case, and in regards to the neck, with the frets not working and the bad nut job I wanted a new neck, it's all in the first thread.

I have always said at least he did do some decent work on the guitar, and I have acknowledged that on this and other forums, but in the end, the neck still sucked so I wasn't a 100% super happy chappy still.

Lets go through this:

I've actually gone so far out of my way to handle Vic's situation that this is becoming ridiculous. He gets the guitar, waits 6 -7 months, and THEN complains about aspects that are simply not defective. But this is typical of him. He complains, whines, and then comment many months after he gets something. He then bashes GMW with zero feedback from me. He basically cherry picks what he wants to complain about and then I'm left to try to help him with absolutely zero thanks in return.

I waited a while trying to fix the issues myself, the thought of returning it was too much as the frets should have been fixable here. They weren't.

But specifically Tim, and at absolutely zero cost to him, I performed the following work in an attempt to make him happy the first time the issue of those sharkfin inlays came up:

Disassembled the guitar
Routed for a Floyd recess (which just like those sharkfin inlays, he ordered AFTER the body was done and painted. This is typical of Vic)
Repainted the guitar, including the recess
Milled/dressed the frets
Reassembled the guitar with a full set up
Shipped the guitar back to Australia

This is all stuff he needed to do under warranty, and he would only cover return shipping on a guitar he stuffed up.

I allowed him to fix the shim in the neck by recessing the Floyd, instead of getting a new body built with the correct neck pocket angle, this was a warranty issue.

He milled and dressed the frets to showcase it to others, but it didn't last, but again, part of warranty setup. The frets are milled all over the place, some are like new, others are about half way gone, that's how much milling was done.

ALL of this was done at my cost. No charges were made to Vic. He wanted a new neck because the inlays were about 1 mm different than those used by Jackson, and I simply refused to accommodate that request because it was unreasonable, and unwarranted. We never stated our inlays to be identical to a Jackson. If he wanted a Jackson, he should have bought a Jackson.

Wow, warranty work at no charge, I'm sooo lucky. Lee was all up for building a Jackon in 2002, no problems.

Next, because I simply don't trust this guy at all, I had THREE players from the JCF (Curt Dudley, Alex Johnson and Jon Shoemaker) come to the shop, inspect and play the guitar after the above work was performed. They were then asked to critique it with zero pressure from me. It was unanimous. The guitar played great, and looked great. All three JCF members agreed that Vic's complaints were completely unwarranted. So I shipped it back and heard nothing for 7- 8 months until now. Not even a thank you for my efforts to resolve the situation. Then he complains now, many months later.

He heard nothing again for a long time as the replacement fretboard just arrived and we got to work to fix the guitar, and I found crap under the surface. If he wanted I could have emailed him weekly to say the guitar still played like ass. When those guys played it it was the only time it played decent, look at the pictures, it's not possible for the frets to stay stable.

Next, this guitar was originally ordered with dot inlays. Of course, after the bridseye neck was made, he wants sharkfins. So we simply pulled the frets, milled down the maple and installed a lam top which can't be seen under the black neck binding. This is a perfectly acceptable practice and I can tell you that Jackson has done this many times to correct fretboard "issues". The fact there's a few small gaps on the sides, and the guitar played great when it left (again, fully verified by three other JCF members), I still find his complaints to be without merit.

An unbound strathead neck with 1 5/8 nut was ordered with dots, when Lee could not supply a neck with truss adjustment at the headstock, this became a reverse pointy with sharkfins and binding. The nut became a 1 11/16 as Lee would not do a 1 /58 pointy. Lee fucked up pure and simple, I have the email trail and I know what I ordered, as soon as I went Jackson neck sharkfins were in the picture. Lucky he didn't start building a reverse strathead, who knows what I would have gotten then.

He thinks the shitty veneer is normal, it's common to leave so much of an old board and shove some thin stuff on top, the frets love that.

See, I am a whiner, wanting the guitar I ordered and paid for, I'm asking too much from the man.

[RacerX]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

Click on Who's Online to check out just how poopular this thread is!

[Hambucker]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

Sorry but Im against you.

After reading Lee's email I find that you are very whiny. I know its your money and when you handle it to someone it better be what you ordered. But man... you don't even seem to have constant toughts. If this guitar would have mean something to you, IMO I would have waited for him to be able to supply me a neck with headstock truss rod (like you wanted). Instead of switching in Mid-process.



Try this analogy.

I work at a pizzeria. If the customer orders a cheese and pepperonni pizza and when it comes out of the oven he tells me that he would prefers mushrooms and peppers on it. No way im gonna do another one. I'll just throw some of these over the cheese and let it bake again. Im not gonna put that pepperonni and cheese pizza away and hope someone will buy it soon before it gets cold.


From what it looks like, you wanted a «poor-man jackson» aka : « Im gonna buy a GMW and put a Jackson sticker on it hehe »

3 people seems to have judged your guitar and told it was okay. Yes, you can tell me that you are different from them because the money comes out of your wallet, but nonetheless what made you inspect so much what you received those last day?

Answer :
You lost faith with GMW as soon as you saw the paintjob and the inlays. What made you continue with them?? You knew what you specced and how it would have been different (judging by the inlays). Why didn't you cancel? Is the JCF controlling your mind?

From what you make it, it looks like it's part of the community if today you've got something that deceives you.

No, I never did put my hands on a GMW. Yes I would have been tempted to buy one considering the good feedbacks here. But if what I would have wanted was a strathead with a headstock truss rod adjustment, I would have waited until he could supply me (Hell! He could do stratheads in the days...) with what I specced or I would have ordered Musikraft stuff on a Dinky body and have it painted like I would like.

Im sincerely sorry for you. But I'm not viewing the same point of vue as you are.

[VitaminG]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *�%$@

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say that's a pretty damned good explanation. Like I said earlier, I didn't even buy my GMW from Lee and he still put forth the extra effort to make the guitar 100%. Sorry, but in my opinion, this was a witch hunt.

By the way, didn't I read a thread about " JCF tolerance?" You fuckers slay me!

[/ QUOTE ]
that may be a "pretty good explanation", and for all I know it may actually be the way Lee remembers things.

The extra work that Lee did recessing the Floyd "free of charge" was to rectify the problem with the neck angle being incorrect for a non-recessed Floyd. Vic had ordered a non-recessed Floyd, but the neck pocket was cut wrong. Somehow that is Vic's fault? If the dot inlays were already in before Vic asked for sharkies, why didn't Lee explain that to him at the time? The way Vic explained it to me was that he requested the change fairly early in the process, Lee had agreed to it, and just before shipping when Lee was confirming the specs he advised that the neck had dots, not the sharkies Vic had requested. So after much bellyaching, Lee said he'd fix it and have the fretboard redone with the ebony sharks.

I also remember the day Vic took receipt of the guitar. Following delay after delay, it finally arrived & was expecting Vic to be through the roof with excitement. When we spoke on the phone, he was far from excited. He told me that the guitar looked fantastic but played like a pile of shit. After all the raving about GMW's setups & workmanship on the JCF, he was very disappointed. But not to worry, he'll take it to a local luthier and have it tweaked. That's when they discovered some issues. Vic didn't sit on the guitar for 7 months before voicing his concerns, they were there from day one. And his initial contact with Lee was polite & courteous, but Lee had little interest in addressing the issues and it always seemed that he was of the opinion that as Vic was a once-off buyer from the other side of the planet, that it was all too hard and Vic would eventually just go away.

Now when the guitar was shipped back to Lee, he could've discretely replaced the fretboard and then returned it to Vic saying "there's nothing wrong with the guitar" & Vic probably would've wondered if maybe it was fine all along, thereby protecting Lee's reputation as a builder & maintaining his grumpy old man image.

But instead, he laminates the fretboard? An apparently common practice, despite the number of people here who vow that they have never seen such a thing in all their years owning and/or building guitars.

Whatever.

You can polish a turd, but a turd it still remains.

[RacerX]

Re: Lee Garver is an .........

BTW, here is a pic of Lee "working" on the Shotgun Soloist:




[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[toejam]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *�%$@

[ QUOTE ]
You can polish a turd, but a turd it still remains.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, and it will take quite a bit of polish for Lee. Like I said before, Fuck Lee!!! And I was thinking of getting some work done by him in the near future... NOT!

[moro]

Re: Lee Garver is an .........

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, here is a pic of Lee "working" on the Shotgun Soloist:

[/ QUOTE ]

Yikes. Even if he doesn't care about drilling the hole properly, you'd think he would care about PUTTING A PADDLE BIT THROUGH HIS NARDS.

Wow.

[Rupe]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *�%$@

OK, I just spent the last 1/2 hour reading this mess...sorry what you have had to endure Vic. Buying a custom guitar should be one of life's high points, not a continual source of stress.
No matter what Lee says about Vic...and only Vic and Lee truly know the truth...I can't get Lee defending the fretboard veneer as a common practice. I've never seen this in my 20+ years of playing and repairing guitars. I have always had good experiences when I've spoken with Lee (I never pulled the trigger on a GMW), but anyone on here who is defending him in this scenario is a complete douchebag. Vic may or may not have been a PITA, but there is still no excuse for this treatment.

[jgcable]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *�%$@

Imagine the thread we will have when the 357Customs scam is finally realized!! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif[/img]

[Genebaby]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but Im against you.

After reading Lee's email I find that you are very whiny. I know its your money and when you handle it to someone it better be what you ordered. But man... you don't even seem to have constant toughts. If this guitar would have mean something to you, IMO I would have waited for him to be able to supply me a neck with headstock truss rod (like you wanted). Instead of switching in Mid-process.



Try this analogy.

I work at a pizzeria. If the customer orders a cheese and pepperonni pizza and when it comes out of the oven he tells me that he would prefers mushrooms and peppers on it. No way im gonna do another one. I'll just throw some of these over the cheese and let it bake again. Im not gonna put that pepperonni and cheese pizza away and hope someone will buy it soon before it gets cold.


From what it looks like, you wanted a «poor-man jackson» aka : « Im gonna buy a GMW and put a Jackson sticker on it hehe »

3 people seems to have judged your guitar and told it was okay. Yes, you can tell me that you are different from them because the money comes out of your wallet, but nonetheless what made you inspect so much what you received those last day?

Answer :
You lost faith with GMW as soon as you saw the paintjob and the inlays. What made you continue with them?? You knew what you specced and how it would have been different (judging by the inlays). Why didn't you cancel? Is the JCF controlling your mind?

From what you make it, it looks like it's part of the community if today you've got something that deceives you.

No, I never did put my hands on a GMW. Yes I would have been tempted to buy one considering the good feedbacks here. But if what I would have wanted was a strathead with a headstock truss rod adjustment, I would have waited until he could supply me (Hell! He could do stratheads in the days...) with what I specced or I would have ordered Musikraft stuff on a Dinky body and have it painted like I would like.

Im sincerely sorry for you. But I'm not viewing the same point of vue as you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, but you don't win the prize. Listen up:

My thoughts are constant. Lee will NEVER make a strat style neck with the truss adjustment at the top, it wasn't a question of waiting, it was Jackson style or nothing. Read the other big thread I linked in my first post.

Therefore, I specced out a completely new neck before it had even been started, cause it was either that or not get a GMW, so the Jackson neck was ordered, all at once with sharkfins and binding, cause it's a Jackson thing. I did NOT switch mid process, Lee fucked up, pure and simple.

I did not want a poor mans Jackson, I wanted a GMW, to experience the excellent quality. It started as a 24 fret strathead, and became a 24 fret Jackson head. These are the guitars I like. I have explained in the other thread, I could have gone to Jackson, but I have USA and Custom Shop Jacksons, I didn't have a GMW, so one to my specs seemed like a great idea. My fave guitar look is Charvel/Jackson, why should I order something I don't like?

I don't understand what you are saying about losing faith in GMW when I saw the paint and inlays. The paint was awesome (thanx Dan), and I didn't see the inlays till the guitar was first delivered in Aug 2004, what am I gonna do then? Cancel my order? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] How does that work?

Who knew about Musikraft in 2002, I didn't, I've only heard about them again thanx to this Forum, it would seem a good way to go to get something put together today.

[Genebaby]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *�%$@

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd say that's a pretty damned good explanation. Like I said earlier, I didn't even buy my GMW from Lee and he still put forth the extra effort to make the guitar 100%. Sorry, but in my opinion, this was a witch hunt.

By the way, didn't I read a thread about " JCF tolerance?" You fuckers slay me!

[/ QUOTE ]
that may be a "pretty good explanation", and for all I know it may actually be the way Lee remembers things.

The extra work that Lee did recessing the Floyd "free of charge" was to rectify the problem with the neck angle being incorrect for a non-recessed Floyd. Vic had ordered a non-recessed Floyd, but the neck pocket was cut wrong. Somehow that is Vic's fault? If the dot inlays were already in before Vic asked for sharkies, why didn't Lee explain that to him at the time? The way Vic explained it to me was that he requested the change fairly early in the process, Lee had agreed to it, and just before shipping when Lee was confirming the specs he advised that the neck had dots, not the sharkies Vic had requested. So after much bellyaching, Lee said he'd fix it and have the fretboard redone with the ebony sharks.

I also remember the day Vic took receipt of the guitar. Following delay after delay, it finally arrived & was expecting Vic to be through the roof with excitement. When we spoke on the phone, he was far from excited. He told me that the guitar looked fantastic but played like a pile of shit. After all the raving about GMW's setups & workmanship on the JCF, he was very disappointed. But not to worry, he'll take it to a local luthier and have it tweaked. That's when they discovered some issues. Vic didn't sit on the guitar for 7 months before voicing his concerns, they were there from day one. And his initial contact with Lee was polite & courteous, but Lee had little interest in addressing the issues and it always seemed that he was of the opinion that as Vic was a once-off buyer from the other side of the planet, that it was all too hard and Vic would eventually just go away.

Now when the guitar was shipped back to Lee, he could've discretely replaced the fretboard and then returned it to Vic saying "there's nothing wrong with the guitar" & Vic probably would've wondered if maybe it was fine all along, thereby protecting Lee's reputation as a builder & maintaining his grumpy old man image.

But instead, he laminates the fretboard? An apparently common practice, despite the number of people here who vow that they have never seen such a thing in all their years owning and/or building guitars.

Whatever.

You can polish a turd, but a turd it still remains.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanx Gary, but Lee didn't was quite calm about his stuff up and changing the board over to sharkfins. I remember being worried about how he'd do it, thinking maybe they'd put fins over the dots, but that wouldn't work. I'm pretty sure I asked him and he said they'd replace the fingerboard, which I thought was good. I realise now that my idea of a fingerboard and his are two different things.

[moro]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

Isn't whether or not Vic was unreasonable sort of beside the point? There's no question that Lee put a veneer on the fretboard. Both Vic and Lee agree on that. How is that acceptable?

[VitaminG]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

sorry Vic, shoulda known better than to rely on my fading memory [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[RacerX]

Re: Lee Garver is an .........

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, here is a pic of Lee "working" on the Shotgun Soloist:

[/ QUOTE ]

Yikes. Even if he doesn't care about drilling the hole properly, you'd think he would care about PUTTING A PADDLE BIT THROUGH HIS NARDS.

Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]



[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] It's a joking around pic, dude. The speed holes were already in that axe when Lee did a setup [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]