Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *&#%$@

[Badseed]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

I just got one thing to say...

If someone posted about a charvel or jackson, how long would this attack mentality last with the admins?Shit, we all know the answer to that question.Let it rest Vic.Youve made your point.

Get your shit together and do whats neccesary to make you happy.Life is way too short to piss and moan this much.How much Bandwitdth have you used up with both of your threads?

Now, put that energy into something fun, like your ol lady or something.Buy a GMP,warmoth, ect....Find something good rather then run round and round chasing your tail on this one.

Yes, a wood paneling on a guitar is BS, but it doesnt look to me that its all roses on your side as well.

Good day mate, have a good one [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[moro]

Re: Lee Garver is an .........

[ QUOTE ]
It's a joking around pic, dude. The speed holes were already in that axe when Lee did a setup [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Curse you and your funny pic!

[skorb]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

it just isn't right to me to glue a thin veneer on a fretboard, reseat frets and expect that to work. it's so obvious from the pics. awful workmanship and a bad idea to start with.

sorry, after reading all this, I know where I cannot consider buying a new guitar. not that that was going to happen soon anyway [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] but still.

a veneer? common practice?

[charvelguy]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *�%$@

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ya know what. The heck with GMW. There are WAY too many other FANTASTIC custom alternatives - Carvin, Jackson, Charvel, Suhr, Anderson, Zion, USACG, Warmoth, San Dimas Guitars, Grosh, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

...GMP

[/ QUOTE ]

Not unless you're going to dig up the corpse and begin CPR. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I know they're defunct..you have to settle for what has been already made.

[toejam]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

[ QUOTE ]
I just got one thing to say...

If someone posted about a charvel or jackson, how long would this attack mentality last with the admins? Shit, we all know the answer to that question.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? This forum is a separate entity, privately run, and has no real ties to Jackson/Charvel, so if there was a major problem with a J/C, why wouldn't it be aired here? It's not an attack against the admins since they don't work for the company.
This is not the Carvin forum that's run by employees of the company and don't want dirty laundry aired on their board. If there's a problem with a Carvin, they'd rather be emailed or called to have a problem worked out (they really do have great customer service). How easy is it to get a situation resolved with J/C?

[Genebaby]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just got one thing to say...

If someone posted about a charvel or jackson, how long would this attack mentality last with the admins? Shit, we all know the answer to that question.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? This forum is a separate entity, privately run, and has no real ties to Jackson/Charvel, so if there was a major problem with a J/C, why wouldn't it be aired here? It's not an attack against the admins since they don't work for the company.
This is not the Carvin forum that's run by employees of the company and don't want dirty laundry aired on their board. If there's a problem with a Carvin, they'd rather be emailed or called to have a problem worked out (they really do have great customer service). How easy is it to get a situation resolved with J/C?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's about it right there. If someone purchased a Jackson and the guitar was unplayable and the aftersales service was so bad they were driven to replace the fretboard off their own back, and then they discovered this, and JC still told them to go away and not come back, I think it would be a totally reasonable thread on this board. It's what it's about, share the good, share the bad.

[Genebaby]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

[ QUOTE ]
I just got one thing to say...

If someone posted about a charvel or jackson, how long would this attack mentality last with the admins?Shit, we all know the answer to that question.Let it rest Vic.Youve made your point.

Get your shit together and do whats neccesary to make you happy.Life is way too short to piss and moan this much.How much Bandwitdth have you used up with both of your threads?

Now, put that energy into something fun, like your ol lady or something.Buy a GMP,warmoth, ect....Find something good rather then run round and round chasing your tail on this one.

Yes, a wood paneling on a guitar is BS, but it doesnt look to me that its all roses on your side as well.

Good day mate, have a good one [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I have not gone through enough bandwith to make up for what Lee has done. I won't stop until MegaGigs have been used, many MegaGigs. Seriously. If you'd paid $4000 of your dollars, waited two years and got what I'd gotten I think you'd be telling a different tale. Especially after sending it back, being refused a new neck when you know you should get one, and finding out 18 months after getting the pile of junk exactly why you've been having problems from day one.

Since 2002 I've gained a nice mortgage, and in a few months I'll be a first time father, there are no more customs to be ordered from the USA, this was it, and I blew it on Lee and his crappy work practices, and I'm not pleased.

Pls explain also what you mean when you say it's not all roses on my side as well? [img]/images/graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

[Endrik]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

man, I would be so pissed that I would beat that crappy guitar to million pieces.

[Budman68]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

[ QUOTE ]
Next, this guitar was originally ordered with dot inlays. Of course, after the bridseye neck was made, he wants sharkfins. So we simply pulled the frets, milled down the maple and installed a lam top which can't be seen under the black neck binding. This is a perfectly acceptable practice and I can tell you that Jackson has done this many times to correct fretboard "issues".

[/ QUOTE ]


<font color="aqua">Sounds like another "ask Jackson" question, eh??

Unreal, Vic, just unreal......I remember when you first had problems with this whole thing and to think it's still haunting..... I'm so sorry to hear about this. I have to agree with most of those others and just move on, and start making yourself happy again, this isn't good for you, I know. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]</font>

[paddok]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

I'm probably going to hang myself out to dry by posting this but I feel as though I should.

Vic, as much as I have been happy to help you with this stuff there are some things I disagree with you on.

To Vic:
1) Firstly, the notion that you wanted a slightly less expensive Jackson still rings true to me. I didn't want to say anything originally, but if you really wanted a GMW why did you not get a GMW logo installed? Or if that wasn't an option, why not leave it blank as opposed to putting that gold Jackson logo on it? IMO ordering a pointy, with a soloist body and sticking a Jackson logo on it is about as far as you can go into having a fake Jackson.

2) I don't know what was wrong with in the first place. I'm not arguing that it wasn't fucked the first time around. I do know however that that guitar played great when it left. I really tried to go over that thing in depth. Even when fretting hard and really biting in on the first couple of frets there was no fretboard movement or any signs what so ever of a problem. Things could have changed etc. but the point is it really was a SOLID guitar when it left. That in my books means a lot to me, as I’m not sure of any sort of time delay device that can just make a great guitar turn to shit as it arrives in Aus.

3) I remember taking to Lee and being in the shop when the guitar was done. Lee was simply saying I'm waiting for Vic to give me the word to ship it back. I always wonder why you end up sitting on these things for so long. I mean if you got that guitar back for the second time and it still played like crap, I'd be just as pissed as if I found a lam top on the fretboard.

4) You do occasionally come off as whiney, in this thread at least. From the way you have been posting on this forum, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if you were a pain in the ass to deal with (even if not intentionally). As a guy who has worked with many people who are pissed of constantly (read: lawyers) it can be hard sometimes to not get gruff with them, and I'm about as laid back as you can get. If you dealt with Lee the same way you posted on this forum, I wouldn’t be surprised that he wants to wash his hands of you.

5) It is a little unfair to argue against Lee in this thread as he has no voice and noone here aside from you and Lee knows exactly what went on. I'm not saying this is the case, but there could be a lot left out on either side. Or your refutations could be absolute B.S. and nobody on the JCF would be any wiser, simply because noone of us can know the full story.

6) When I've ordered guitars from Lee in the past, he was very up-front about the instability of figured woods and I was advised that only non-figured maple would be covered under the neck warranty.

7) I'm not too sure exactly how a mill / fretdress doesn't last through shipping. I ran my fingers all over those frets and they felt good to me.

8) The shim? I'm pretty sure almost all of the bolt on guitars I have ever owned have been shimmed in one way or another. From CS Jacksons to my GMWs.



To those who build guitars out there:

1) I don't know the answer to this, but is it the case that the lam fretboard would certainly cause the frets to be unstable? It seems as though from the photos that the frets only go down to the bottom of the lam top anyways. Also it seems to me that if I were to drop a T shaped object into a slot that fit it properly (as the photo seems to indicate) that T shouldn't move side to side, and would not fall out if glued properly.

I'm looking at guys like Sully for the answer to this. People who have actually built guitars and done some serious fretwork. And pardon my ignorance if I am dead wrong on this. If I am, I will eat my words.



To the forum members who are saying Lee is a bitch/I'd never buy a GMW:

Hard to conclude that Lee is a true asshole if you have never dealt with him. Let alone that you are really only hearing one side of the argument how Vic wants it to be heard. It seems as though most guys who have actually ordered a guitar from GMW preface their post with "Though Lee has been nothing but courteous to me..." Yet half the guys in this thread probably have never even spoken to the guy. In fact, Lee has always gone out of his way to help me out. When I was looking for a certain Jackson bridge, guess who offered to send me photos before I could even ask? When I managed to seriously fuck up the setup on one of my GMWs just by toying around with string gauges, Lee had no problem with me bringing it in and fixing it same day, despite the pile of guitars waiting to be finished.

To those who have said I'd never buy a GMW. I can't really say anything. If you don't want to buy one, please don't. All I know is that the only guitar I've ever played that struck me as "the one" or a keeper is a GMW. I've ordered two GMWs new from Lee in the past, a strat head and a pointy. Both are seriously kick ass guitars and problem free. I've also owned two other GMW's one a standard bolt on affair, the other a neckthrough seven string with Moser body and BCR head stock. All of which were killer guitars and surprise surprise, problem free.

Some things that don’t add up to me:

If it is the case that you have a new fretboard ready to be installed on this guitar, why are you so steamed and saying stuff like you have a new mortgage and child on the way? I understand it’s a hassle, but it is one you have already taken care of with that new board.

Also, why the talk about deserving a new neck now? All things aside, if you have the new fretboard ready to go, why would you not want to just get that installed instead of trying to get Lee to do something he can’t even legally do?


I think this was most of what I wanted to say. Honestly this post isn't intended to cause drama, and Vic I'm not making judgements about you as a human being. I'm sure you are a great guy. I'm just giving my .02 on the situation. I do feel sorry for you that you have to go through such a hassle with simply having a guitar you are unhappy with.

Disclaimer: I do not work for GMW. I have no familial ties to Lee. I am not paid or given any incentives for backing GMW/Lee. I’m just posting what I believe to be true.


/flame suit on

Alex J

[agresivo]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

I've been reading the whole thread in the last hour and I'm amazed! A thin veneer over the fretboard!! If I'm going to order a custom guitar sometime in my life it won't be a GMW.

Paddok, I would rather get a custom Ran from Poland before any of Lee's guitars... Maybe he's also made great guitars, but I wouldn't want to receive the same treatment as Vic. I just wouldn't take the risk for several thousand bucks.

[Genebaby]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

[ QUOTE ]
I'm probably going to hang myself out to dry by posting this but I feel as though I should.

Vic, as much as I have been happy to help you with this stuff there are some things I disagree with you on.

To Vic:
1) Firstly, the notion that you wanted a slightly less expensive Jackson still rings true to me. I didn't want to say anything originally, but if you really wanted a GMW why did you not get a GMW logo installed? Or if that wasn't an option, why not leave it blank as opposed to putting that gold Jackson logo on it? IMO ordering a pointy, with a soloist body and sticking a Jackson logo on it is about as far as you can go into having a fake Jackson.

2) I don't know what was wrong with in the first place. I'm not arguing that it wasn't fucked the first time around. I do know however that that guitar played great when it left. I really tried to go over that thing in depth. Even when fretting hard and really biting in on the first couple of frets there was no fretboard movement or any signs what so ever of a problem. Things could have changed etc. but the point is it really was a SOLID guitar when it left. That in my books means a lot to me, as I’m not sure of any sort of time delay device that can just make a great guitar turn to shit as it arrives in Aus.

3) I remember taking to Lee and being in the shop when the guitar was done. Lee was simply saying I'm waiting for Vic to give me the word to ship it back. I always wonder why you end up sitting on these things for so long. I mean if you got that guitar back for the second time and it still played like crap, I'd be just as pissed as if I found a lam top on the fretboard.

4) You do occasionally come off as whiney, in this thread at least. From the way you have been posting on this forum, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if you were a pain in the ass to deal with (even if not intentionally). As a guy who has worked with many people who are pissed of constantly (read: lawyers) it can be hard sometimes to not get gruff with them, and I'm about as laid back as you can get. If you dealt with Lee the same way you posted on this forum, I wouldn’t be surprised that he wants to wash his hands of you.

5) It is a little unfair to argue against Lee in this thread as he has no voice and noone here aside from you and Lee knows exactly what went on. I'm not saying this is the case, but there could be a lot left out on either side. Or your refutations could be absolute B.S. and nobody on the JCF would be any wiser, simply because noone of us can know the full story.

6) When I've ordered guitars from Lee in the past, he was very up-front about the instability of figured woods and I was advised that only non-figured maple would be covered under the neck warranty.

7) I'm not too sure exactly how a mill / fretdress doesn't last through shipping. I ran my fingers all over those frets and they felt good to me.

8) The shim? I'm pretty sure almost all of the bolt on guitars I have ever owned have been shimmed in one way or another. From CS Jacksons to my GMWs.



To those who build guitars out there:

1) I don't know the answer to this, but is it the case that the lam fretboard would certainly cause the frets to be unstable? It seems as though from the photos that the frets only go down to the bottom of the lam top anyways. Also it seems to me that if I were to drop a T shaped object into a slot that fit it properly (as the photo seems to indicate) that T shouldn't move side to side, and would not fall out if glued properly.

I'm looking at guys like Sully for the answer to this. People who have actually built guitars and done some serious fretwork. And pardon my ignorance if I am dead wrong on this. If I am, I will eat my words.



To the forum members who are saying Lee is a bitch/I'd never buy a GMW:

Hard to conclude that Lee is a true asshole if you have never dealt with him. Let alone that you are really only hearing one side of the argument how Vic wants it to be heard. It seems as though most guys who have actually ordered a guitar from GMW preface their post with "Though Lee has been nothing but courteous to me..." Yet half the guys in this thread probably have never even spoken to the guy. In fact, Lee has always gone out of his way to help me out. When I was looking for a certain Jackson bridge, guess who offered to send me photos before I could even ask? When I managed to seriously fuck up the setup on one of my GMWs just by toying around with string gauges, Lee had no problem with me bringing it in and fixing it same day, despite the pile of guitars waiting to be finished.

To those who have said I'd never buy a GMW. I can't really say anything. If you don't want to buy one, please don't. All I know is that the only guitar I've ever played that struck me as "the one" or a keeper is a GMW. I've ordered two GMWs new from Lee in the past, a strat head and a pointy. Both are seriously kick ass guitars and problem free. I've also owned two other GMW's one a standard bolt on affair, the other a neckthrough seven string with Moser body and BCR head stock. All of which were killer guitars and surprise surprise, problem free.

Some things that don’t add up to me:

If it is the case that you have a new fretboard ready to be installed on this guitar, why are you so steamed and saying stuff like you have a new mortgage and child on the way? I understand it’s a hassle, but it is one you have already taken care of with that new board.

Also, why the talk about deserving a new neck now? All things aside, if you have the new fretboard ready to go, why would you not want to just get that installed instead of trying to get Lee to do something he can’t even legally do?


I think this was most of what I wanted to say. Honestly this post isn't intended to cause drama, and Vic I'm not making judgements about you as a human being. I'm sure you are a great guy. I'm just giving my .02 on the situation. I do feel sorry for you that you have to go through such a hassle with simply having a guitar you are unhappy with.

Disclaimer: I do not work for GMW. I have no familial ties to Lee. I am not paid or given any incentives for backing GMW/Lee. I’m just posting what I believe to be true.


/flame suit on

Alex J

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, a lot to go over here Alex.

1) I like to logo stuff to suit what I like. I have a Charvel tattoo on my arm and both J/C logos as stickers on my car. I ordered this guitar to keep forever, so I went with what I thought was a quality product, not quality and better resale value, ie Jackson. When I couldn't get the specs I wanted it went from a Charvel style to Jackson style, and I would have done the same to that headstock. Call it what you want, it's just a guitar.

2) What was wrong in the first place? That fretboard travesty of a veneer was there from day one when I got it. The guitar can be worked on to play ok, but not long later it will go bad again, and then more fret work. These frets have not been played and are hardly jumbo at all anymore.

3) By the time I agreed to let Lee ship it back I knew it was useless talking to Lee about it and decided to fix it properly myself. Had I not found the veneer to explain the problems, but a normal fretboard with frets in it, I just would have done so and presented the newly boarded guitar. The veneer changed everything.

4) I'm sorry I come off as whiney to you. I am trying to get some points across. On my website I'll show you some emails. As a guitar enthusiast, I know what's what and I know what I want. Being nitpicky is allowed when you're the customer, I know and remember every detail of this guitar order, it's the only one I had going, whereas the shop has a bunch and that's how mistakes like the dot inlays get made. How they are fixed makes a world of difference. If you've ever read some of my other posts, you'll get an idea what I'm like. This issue with GMW is what gets my goat.

5) Lee has been aware of all threads, and has always been welcome to have his say. Pls stop saying I'm full of BS, that is just uncalled for, if I was full of BS I would not be doing this, I have strong legs to stand on in every part of this issue. My memory is clear and I have a ton of emails.

6) Figured woods and stability, what's the go? Russ, my luthier who is fixing the GMW neck, made me a guitar with the sickest flame & birdseye I have ever seen. If Birdseye is a disease, this neck has died a thousand times. It's unfinished and oiled, plays like a mutha and has been as stable as a rock, I just pick it up and play it all year round, so I go for figure every time if possible. What does this have to do with my guitar anyway, I'm not saying the birdseye is a problem, it's the veneer. Remember that bit Alex, it will always come back to the veneer, that's where the instability lies.

7) Here we come back to the veneer again. A few days later and all the work of milling and dressing is undone. You're not getting the picture on how this guitar keeps going bad. It's not Australia, it's not shipping, it's not the fret dress, it's the veneer.

8) I'll be damned if a guitar I order new in this century is going to have a shim. To me that's for guitars you are fixing up that you want to work with different hardware. None of my other guitars have one, my Model 88 has the properly cut neck pocket slant, as this should have done. While you mention the shim, lets not forget it was a bad one too, just a slice of plastic at the rear, with a large air gap in there.

I mentioned the mortgage and child in response to another thread saying I should get something like a GMP. I replied that my life has changed, I'm no longer spending thousands of dollars on guitars, I have other priorities, what is your problem with that. You seem to just read things and take them out of context.

I deserved a new neck the minute he put that veneer on without telling me, though that's called a new fingerboard at GMW. I deserved one then, I deservee one now, but I'll never get it. I dont' think I asked for a new neck this time round, I'll have to check my posts. Others have said I should get a new neck, and even a refund. No chance of that.

[horns666]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

Ahem..I believe a "Destruction Ritual" is in order here..

and is taking place as we speak...

please continue.. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

BTW Sorry dude..this truly sucks ass! [img]/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[btx109]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

A few points I'd like to make:

I corresponded with Neal Moser earlier and he'd like to state for the record:

"I would like the people on the JCF board to understand that the only work we do on a GMW guitar is milling the frets and making the bone. We have NOTHING to do with the original construction of the body OR necks."

This is important for me because I would hate for anyone to erroneously believe that Neal performed shoddy fret work on Vic's guitar. Neal is known as a master luthier whose attention to detail is first-rate. I don't believe he would ground frets unevenly or allow ends to protrude...but he didn't install the frets and some of those issues may have been there when he worked on the neck.

By comparison, Lee isn't a luthier per se and people often mistakenly refer to him as someone who builds guitar necks and bodies himself. He does not. Lee does painting and finishing, electronics, assembly and setups...but he doesn't do the wood work for GMW. Now that in and of itself isn't a bad thing. I bring it up only to illustrate that that might be the cause of some of the differing levels of quality between different GMW guitars. If different parts are being outsourced and fabricated from different suppliers, then it stands to reason why one guy may have a guitar that literally sings and plays like heaven, while another guy may wonder what's all the fuss about because his axe is little more than average to him.

This is probably what happened with Vic. It's also a possible cause for the wildly uneven delivery times of different instruments, where one guy gets his in a couple of months while another axe takes over two years to complete. The stuff isn't done in-house, under one roof, under the eye of one supervisor...at least, not all of it is. Which again is my guess for what happened re the laminated fretboard. AFAIK, that's not SOP for repairing/replacing a fretboard and if nothing else, Vic should have been told first that that was the manner in which the repair would be performed, and given the option to proceed with it or leave it as it was.

As far as whether or not to buy a GMW, I would advise anyone considering any big-ticket purchase to speak with the person you'll be working with and make up your own mind. Your experience may differ from the next guy's, and if there is anything I've learned in life it's that every story has at least three sides: your's, mine and what really happened. Do your research, listen to others but never take anyone else's experience as gospel and make up your own mind for what works best for you.

I will say that at this point I am more sympathetic to Vic's cause than I have been previously. But it is time to let it go and move on IMO. Nothing else can be gained from trashing GMW and Lee at this point and since the new fretboard is about to be installed with the proper sharkfins, isn't it time to enjoy the guitar for what it is now rather than continue bitching over what it isn't?

[Chrisb]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

I think Gene may have been a little anal with some of the details (I mean the complaining about the sharkies size is a bit much) but none of that changes the fact that the lam top fretboard was destined to fail I mean logic dictates that there is no way that can survive more than a year of good play time. How Lee can think thats acceptable, and then claim its common practices boggles the mind. I think there is a little bit of blame on gene here but keep in mind that he spent the money. I see nothing in Lee's email that excuses what is visible in those pictures. Thats the bottom line.