Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *&#%$@

[sully]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

[ QUOTE ]

And though Lee is aware of these threads, the point is he does not have an account to post on, and thus has no direct voice on this board. I'm pretty sure if I was in his shoes I wouldn't bother either. Imagine if I ordered a guitar from Sully, and when I got it, I thought I had a bunch of problems with it. So I went to a forum that half the JCF posted on, but Sully didn't, and started talking shit and arguing what a poor job he did.

[/ QUOTE ]

sure, but the only thing that keeps lee from the jcf is lee. i know he doesn't really have time to hang out here, but he's always been welcome. it's not like he was banned or anything, ya know?

sully

[paddok]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And though Lee is aware of these threads, the point is he does not have an account to post on, and thus has no direct voice on this board. I'm pretty sure if I was in his shoes I wouldn't bother either. Imagine if I ordered a guitar from Sully, and when I got it, I thought I had a bunch of problems with it. So I went to a forum that half the JCF posted on, but Sully didn't, and started talking shit and arguing what a poor job he did.

[/ QUOTE ]

sure, but the only thing that keeps lee from the jcf is lee. i know he doesn't really have time to hang out here, but he's always been welcome. it's not like he was banned or anything, ya know?

sully

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. But if I were Lee I would probably stay off this board knowing how the JCF has a tendancy to harass people for something that may have only happened to one person. I would hate logging on to constant PM's of "You asshole" or "When are the new headstocks coming out?" or "How much for this?"

It is threads like these I'd imagine that keep a lot of people off the forum. Same reason I would imagine why we don't see other big names sticking around the forum.

[hippietim]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

I can tell you from personal experience all about logging in to receive "you asshole" PM's [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[~K~]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

[ QUOTE ]
Agreed. But if I were Lee I would probably stay off this board knowing how the JCF has a tendancy to harass people for something that may have only happened to one person. I would hate logging on to constant PM's of "You asshole" or "When are the new headstocks coming out?" or "How much for this?"



[/ QUOTE ]


How bout the fact that Lee used the JCF for unscrupulous behaviors through other people and put the JCF in a bad position . ..He never came and defended himself then either ...

Don't blame the JCF for his lack of presence .. blame him

[YetAnotherOne]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

Alex, seriously, if you don't stop swinging from Lee's nutsack you're going to hurt the guy.

I'm expecting a couple of those "you asshole" PMs any minute now. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[paddok]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Agreed. But if I were Lee I would probably stay off this board knowing how the JCF has a tendancy to harass people for something that may have only happened to one person. I would hate logging on to constant PM's of "You asshole" or "When are the new headstocks coming out?" or "How much for this?"



[/ QUOTE ]


How bout the fact that Lee used the JCF for unscrupulous behaviors through other people and put the JCF in a bad position . ..He never came and defended himself then either ...

Don't blame the JCF for his lack of presence .. blame him

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not aware of Lee using the JCF unscrupulously. Could you elaborate on that? (I realy don't know to what you are refering to)

I'm certainly not blaming anyone or anything. Just offering ideas as to why Lee may not be posting, based off the disappearance of Neal Moser and some other guys.

[paddok]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

[ QUOTE ]
Alex, seriously, if you don't stop swinging from Lee's nutsack you're going to hurt the guy.

I'm expecting a couple of those "you asshole" PMs any minute now. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I realize I am coming off like that [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] but as the only guy who is actually posting who has both a) played that guitar in the USA and b) have had a fair number of dealings with Lee, I feel as though I should post what I believe to be the case.

If my effort is totally in vein, oh well. Just want people to see some of the things I'm seeing.

[charvelguy]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A few points I'd like to make:

I corresponded with Neal Moser earlier and he'd like to state for the record:

"I would ..... AFAIK, that's not SOP for repairing/replacing a fretboard and if nothing else, Vic should have been told first that that was the manner in which the repair would be performed, and given the option to proceed with it or leave it as it was....



[/ QUOTE ] <u>AFAIK, that's not SOP for repairing/replacing a fretboard and if nothing else, Vic should have been told first that that was the manner in which the repair would be performed,</u>

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm looking at this posters comment, the OP being 'btx109' and the only thing I see in quotes from Neil Moser is this:
"I would like the people on the JCF board to understand that the only work we do on a GMW guitar is milling the frets and making the bone. We have NOTHING to do with the original construction of the body OR necks."

The rest of the post I read as the OP words, (OP btx109), not Mosers. Do you guys read this the same?

As far as veneer. On a off track note...I collect old radios on occasion and there is veener wood all over what would be considered as cheap plywood on these radios built in the 30-40's. You often associate products produced today are not built as well as they used to be in 'good ole days'. Trust me, some things were built with detail to quality but companies and individuals then were trying to make a buck same as today. They weren't using top price, grade A components in Fender amps or RCA radios, ..they used what they could get by with, whether they would stand the test of time or not is another story but they would manufacture to make it past the warranty timeframe.

I think Petes points here about the red flag on warranty work is a valid one. Granted, I'm not wanting to open the can of worms even further on this.. time did pass before any complaint or issue was noticed...and at that point, warranty was considered null due to work done to correct an issue that GMW claims is not an issue. I consider that to be in Lee's favor, however, I do strongly consider Vic's points in that the guitar was not built to standards that he wanted to have in a custom instrument costing a couple grand. period.

As far as the recessed trem goes.. the guy wanted a non recessed trem. While a shim is a std 'fix' for such a setup.. I would associate that would typically be fine with the days when one installed a floyd on their V-trem Fender body.
Routing the neck pocket of the body at an angle, afaik.. came down the road in production quite few years later. Which is more common practice?...well, Vic is the customer paying for a custom guitar. I look at those inlays, they are not even, I look at the veneer when the binding is removed, it does not look quality or being stable for an instrument costing over a grand.

It certainly can be perceived as incriminating to Vic to have had three JCF members actually play and inspect the guitar and have him say "ship it" as it certainly seemed Lee knew this whole thing would likely raise its ugly head again later on down the road. Remember, at one point it seemed the guitar was being held as collateral. It was being threatened to be sold to cover costs of repairs?
I see that as being forced to comply to how the repairs were handled.

While I am somewhat surprised to see another GMW bashing thread on the same topics warmed over once again..I certainly do not see Vic as a whiner...and I must say, I've been accused of the same by guys like Carrguitars.
In analogy.. for the most part, he's got great feedback from his customers for his products.. but I was not one of those happy campers. I stand by what I said then, how I was treated by him and how I handled it in corresponding with him. I wanted a simple refund, and he wanted a slippery escape. Would I do biz with him again? Well, he has changed 'some' approaches, I'd consider it, and I'd also consider it is not worth the hassle, for me.. or him. I'm sure that is how both parties feel in this venture towards one another.
IMO was not deserving of the label nor do I think Vic is. He's a customer who has valid points. It's very easy to slap that on anyone who paid for something that turned out to be less than expected because of its repute and glorified reputation by others.

Anyways..granted, Lee has probably made thousands of great guitars or repairs on guitars but it seems decisions and either mistakes or miscommunications on the order specs were made on this instrument that were only to compound themselves as time went on and were further compounded by taking an alternate, more inexpensive route in implementing what would be called 'sop' or rectifying them. A new neck or fretboard of anything over a 1/8th would have resolved any further issue of quality or complaint. He could have planed down the neck to take out the fret slots and put on a new fretboard with new inlays..and it would have likely taken a lot more intensive approach...possibly even more labor and time to complete, but I would have considered that to have been done right. I think Lee's approach to this may have had alot of 'why fix it if it ain't broke' OR, conceal it, and bury it, and no one will smell the stench. His attitude throughout is certainly questionable..in his book, point the finger and say "NEXT!"

When you are dealing with someone overseas, there should be photo's being sent if the particulars that are in question are being performed to satisfaction and everyone is ok and comfortable with what is going on. In this matter, that would have been the route to go.

This comes down to trust. Vic trusted Lee and Lee says, based upon my rep, you can trust me, but there was a series of some serious ball dropping going on over what may seem inconsequential matters.

Anyone who has an issue of complaint is going to be considered a potential 'whiner'.

I do not see Vic in this light IMO.

Just my .02/ [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/sleep.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/brow.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/eviltongue.gif[/img]

Is Vic going to get a new neck out of this?, probably not, but it seems he will take some revenge in shedding light on his story. [img]/images/graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

[Rupe]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I realize I am coming off like that but as the only guy who is actually posting who has both a) played that guitar in the USA and b) have had a fair number of dealings with Lee, I feel as though I should post what I believe to be the case.

If my effort is totally in vein, oh well. Just want people to see some of the things I'm seeing.

[/ QUOTE ]

All this shit you are seeing is absolutely worthless to mention...you are completely missing the simple point with all your observations. The issue is a fretboard veneer is not an adequate or acceptable fix for the problem. Nothing else matters...end of story. [img]/images/graemlins/rant.gif[/img]

[jim777]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

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Who knows. Maybe we will find out that fretboard veneers are common place and perfectly acceptable in situations like this and that we all unintentionally joined a witch hunt which would suck for us.

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I can't believe that's true John. If you look at the guys posting in this thread, no one has ever heard of this practice before. We're not all luthiers certainly, but there's 1000 years of playing/buying/swapping/upgrading experience in this thread (at least) and no one has ever heard of it before. I just called my luthier (he's THE MAN in Manhattan) and he's never heard of it on a good guitar in his 20 years in the business, either.

[YetAnotherOne]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

Just bustin' yer chops Alex. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I asked about fretboard veneers and posted the original pics from this thread elsewhere on the 'net. No ID on the builder or customer, no attempts to slant the discussion, just the pics and an inquiry as to whether that was standard practice. Here's the first reply:

<blockquote>This is (unfortunately) a fairly common practice among low end overseas guitar manfacturers.. when the wood used for the fingerboard is not up to par, visually or structurally, sometimes a veneer is glued on to hide it. Out of the hundreds of fret/fingerboard repairs I have done over the years, I have seen this only twice. Once was on a "Hondo" Les Paul copy, and the other was on a "Kimberly" strat-type guitar from the 60's. The Hondo had a plywood body, and the Kimberly had a pressboard body.. this should give you an idea of the type of guitars I'm talking about. Speaking as a luthier, this is totally unacceptable coming from a private builder or an American guitar company (or ANY company claiming to sell you a decent guitar). If the wood is not up to par it should never be used in the first place, especially for something as important as a neck or fingerboard. This is an attempt to cut costs at the expense of tone and longevity.



On the guitar you're speaking about, I would assume they may have botched the inlays and attempted to hide it with a veneer. There is also the possibility that the new inlays the buyer wanted were smaller than the originals, in which case they would need to either carefully remove and fill the original inlays, then reroute and install the new ones (this takes a lot of work).. or just rip the frets out and slap a veneer with the desired inlays over the top of the board. While this may be a viable option if done properly, in this case it clearly wasn't. In order to do this properly the original fingerboard should be taken down to about 1/8", planed flat, and another 1/8" slab slotted, radius, and glued on top. In this case the original fingerboard was left as-is and a very thin veneer was placed right on top of it.



It looks like you have 2 different necks pictured (one appears to be painted black and the other looks to be a natural finish of some sort).. but in both pictures it's clear that the veneer has not been properly glued to the board. You can expect to have issues with the veneer (and frets) jumping around every time you adjust the truss rod, in humidity changes, and just over time. If someone came to me with this guitar for a repair, I would tell them to throw it away.



That stated, it is not uncommon for a luthier to place a veneer UNDER the fingerboard for a contrast line, but done properly this will in no way effect the playability of the instrument. Also don't confuse this with the 1/8" thick rosewood fingerboards found in older Fenders (and copies) that are often refered to as a "veneer fingerboard". This was thick enough to be stable and support the fretwire, and was glued directly to pre-radiused neck surface. </blockquote>

That's *ONE* data point and it may or may not be representative of the general consensus, let's keep the pitchforks and torches safely put away until we hear a bit more. Hopefully that thread will generate a few more replies.

I think most everyone here would agree that Lee does top notch work but 10% of everything is still built on Friday afternoons. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Oogadee Boogadee]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

there are so many no-brainers here, it's ridiculous.

1. if veneers were common practice where intonation stability over the life of the instrument is CRUCIAL (i.e. the fret board), we'd all have heard of it before this Lee is Poo thread. Furniture veneers which, for what I know, just have to remain glued and not bubble up require very little life-long precision when compared to fret work and intonation quality over the life of the instrument.

2. even with a brand new board on the stock neck with matching headstock, the neck pocket was still cut incorrectly, requiring the specifically unwanted recessed trem.

3. $4,000.00.

Character issues being irrevelant, all that = unacceptable. All customers have a right to know a company's screw up, even if it's one, when the company lets the product leave their doors. Please, lock if you must, but don't delete this thread.

[Shawn]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

Veneer, no veneer, Lee's an ass to deal with period. Unless your in that semi-precious GMW fan club. This veneer situation may be new, but people being turned off by his demeanor has been a constant since I've been here. Go find me a link to someone bashing Tom Anderson or John Suhr. Want someone smaller? How about Bill Nash. You wont find them, because problems are taken care of. And you can be damn sure there's no BS going on when repairs are taking place.

GMW is relatively small time, so you get what you pay for, but that doesnt excuse someone from being a pretentious jerk. I should know, cause I'm one too.... [img]/images/graemlins/poke.gif[/img]


A buddy of mine had acquired a GMW Skulls/Blood drip body some time ago, and called Lee to see if he could send it to him, and pay for a strathead, Floyd, etc....Essentially build the guitar. Lee balked, said he was too busy to build parts guitars (what is it he does?) But said to send it in, and he would route for the floyd and match a neck to it. Not for free, mind you.

Long story short, he gets the body back, the route is crooked, and the holes on the neck he sends back with it dont even remotely line up with the body.

Lee's answer? "Thats why I dont build parts guitars..Sorry." and hangs up.


Bottom Line with GMW, the majority of his guitars are great, but unless youre one of his "buds", Time and time again its been proven, his customer service sucks.



Shawn

[charvelguy]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

What YAO posted from this guy stands where I am on this.
It was a cheap fix. He should have planed it past the original slot point and installed a new fingerboard 'slab' with the new inlays.

[Subvamp]

Re: Lee Garver is an unethical piece of *?%$@

Not to get off-topic too much, but I never knew that GMW outsourced their necks and bodies. There's no way in hell I'd dish out thousands of dollars for a glorified parts mutt with a nice paintjob. There's nothing on the GMW site that tells you that they're just a paint/setup shop and don't mill their parts in-house.