Why is ESP more popular than Jackson?

[Rsmacker]

We need to think also about the title of this thread, "Why are ESP MORE POPULAR.....?"
Does "popular" = "good"?
Not in my book.

Personally I'd rather sell my soul and work like a dog to get a guitar I really really really wanted, to see it sitting in a halo somewhere beckoning me, speaking to me. I used to go down to London just to look at a real-live Jackson guitar, it was the only place you could see them. Maybe if you were lucky there'd be 2 or 3 in stock. Ejaculation! Something about their exclusivity and the fact they weren't everywhere made me want one all the more. I wanted to be special (No, Shobet, before you start, not "speshul")

I wanted one of those, and by fuck I dedicated my life to getting my hands on one. The "popular" guitars of the time, Aria Pro2s, I wasn't interested in, but they were selling shedloads of them. I doubt anyone who had one looks back fondly at them the way Jackson owners do.

These days, ESP is what's known as a "Clitoris guitar" - every cunt has one.

[shobet]

I've got one!

[dangerous_dave]

I also have an LTD

[shobet]

Mine says ESP on the headstock and is probably nearly as old as you are!

[Carbophos]

We need to think also about the title of this thread, "Why are ESP MORE POPULAR.....?"
Does "popular" = "good"?
Not in my book.

The point is that Jackson could be really way more popular that it is now. But the coincidence of music and market trends, some bad production and marketing desisions has happened.

[chrisolson]

These days, ESP is what's known as a "Clitoris guitar" - every cunt has one.

These guitars become more attractive each second...

[shobet]

They can take a licking! OOh err matron!

[VoiceX3]

I don't know how I missed this thread before....but I'm here now and I've got more than two cents to put in. Ok, there was a time when Jackson was the big dog in the yard. Gibson had an aweful reputation, Yngwie was the only good player playing Fenders, ESP was known as a Jackson Ripoff. Schecter was unheard of, Ibanez was still known as a "copy" company, BC Rich was BC Rich but their quality was falling by the wayside after Bernie was bought out, and Dean was off the radar completely. THEN SOMETHING HAPPENNED. These other companies started following Jackson's business plan offerring many different features and basically selling their own hotrods. At the same time, enter AMIC. When Akai (who had no business getting into guitars) took over they expected the Jackson Flagship to just run itself. That was a horrific move to say the least. Jackson was falling from the public eye quickly and the innovation that made Jackson stand out was no longer there....still made great guitars, but that bottom line that made them unique faded quickly. Don't get me wrong, the longtime staffers at Jackson had many a great idea that never really made it to production. At the same time companies like ESP and Ibanez took advantage of the situation BIG TIME. Gibson turned it around (thanks to guys like Zakk Wylde and his flashy Les Pauls back in the spotlight) and Fender was on the road back. Although AMIC knew something was amiss, instead of fixing the problem they created, they killed Charvel...it was obvious they only looked at Jackson as a work free cash cow and had no idea how to right the ship, nor did they really try to. Finally enter FMIC. They're trying. Although it's not quite there yet, for the most part, they get it. Think about it.....Jackson/Charvel seriously hurt Fender back in the day. (don't be naive and think those lawsuits were just about a headstock) So they know the potential, but are still testing the waters. Lots of good things have been coming out of their thinktank. Do they have it right? Not yet, but it's getting there...in due time it'll happen. They listen...really. (DK2M, RR24, trem Upgrades, Real Duncans and EMG's, Stratheads and the return of Charvel) They hear us, it just doesn't happen overnight. So if you don't see a ton of new things at NAMM, or the order times are still a bit long (although, I think they're MUCH better these days) know that there's a ton of work in the background that we don't get to see that IS getting done which will make for noticible changes in the future....we just need to be a little more patient.

As for the ridiculous DEAN/DIME, Jackson/Rhoads comment.......well, Jackson has had and still does have MANY Randy Rhoads models. Read the catalog.....they are Randy Rhoads models. What do you think RR stands for?? DUH!!!!! Is there anything wrong with that? No. And it's been over 25 years. Now for Dean/Dime. Dime was a huge reason for the return of Dean period. All these Dime models were designed by Dime and Dean Z before Dime was killed, should Dean have just killed the whole line? You'd have to be retarded to think they would. Any idea how much $$$ went into tooling and actual manufacturing expenses went into that? It easily could have killed the company again. Like 'em or not Dean is a good company and they make a decent product. Not my cup o tea, but I have played a few and didn't hate it. Not to mention that they supplied 4 good (not cheapies) guitars for our Ride for Dime benefits in TX and PA when all that was asked for was one for TX and they didn't have to do anything, but in Dime's name and for Little Kids Rock they more than did their share. So call Dean whatever you want....but you're wrong.

ESP/Ibanez/Schecter are popular, but are still not what I'd consider a TOP quality instrument....are they good....sure, are they the best, in some twisted views they might be.....opinions are like assholes......everybody has one.

[joshulator]

Hey, I wanted to make sure something was clear about my previous post.

I like Jackson guitars. I like their product. We all have things we'd like to see on our ideal guitar that are not standard features, but I don't think the guitar itself is why Jackson does not seem to have the market presence ESP has. Jackson guitars are just fine, although maybe the pro line needs to make the original Floyd standard (besides on SL3s and RR24s) to better compete with ESP...

The reason why my next purchse is going to be ESP is no negative reflection on Jackson. I used to gas for the RR24, but decided that I wear my guitar too high to make the v shape look good. Thus, I'm stuck with the super strat. I have an SL1, and I want something that looks a little different, just for variety. I supposed I could get a different color or an SL2 (still an option in the back of my mind), but right now the look of the reverse headstock on the ESP M-IIs is what captures my attention.

[goodwood]

ESP was known as a Jackson Ripoff.

Man I don't know what 'era' you are talking about but I've been involved with guitars for about 25 years and I don't EVER recall someone saying that. At one time ESP was a company that built for other brands and pretty much a Custom Shop that you had to order from

These other companies started following Jackson's business plan offerring many different features and basically selling their own hotrods.

I don't think that's an accurate 'take' on things either. Jackson's business plan was
1.place an order
2.wait forever
3.pay an arm and a leg
4.get a great guitar but not necessarily better than some off the shelf guitars.
In the 80s Kramer probably really put a hurt on Jackson by having all of the 'Custom Shop' components on all of their higher end models right off the shelf (ie: Seymour Duncan, Floyd Rose, Schaller, finishes). Remember ESP did most of the construction for Kramer so they learned their craft well...they took the things from KRAMER's business plan that worked and left the things that buried Kramer out of their own equation. Kramer outsold Fender and Gibson for two years in the 80s. ESP went on to:
1. use the tried and true designs
2. offer the high end components
3. offer many different models
4. make the transition to offer many fixed bridge designs with market demand
5. get many, many endorsers
6. have a custom shop that doesn't make many errors
7. get a Korean operation set up to cover another part of the market and put in strict quality control
8. get other operations in less expensive areas set up to cover the entry level guitar market that also have consistent quality

ESP/Ibanez/Schecter are popular, but are still not what I'd consider a TOP quality instrument....are they good....sure, are they the best, in some twisted views they might be

Schecter is owned by ESP now. In some people's "twisted view" nothing comes close to a Jackson-however, I would have to state that of all of the 'big companies' I've heard the most complaints about Jackson quality even though my own experience would state that Gibson would have the most issues.

.....opinions are like assholes......everybody has one.

Yours included.

[VoiceX3]

Man I don't know what 'era' you are talking about but I've been involved with guitars for about 25 years and I don't EVER recall someone saying that. At one time ESP was a company that built for other brands and pretty much a Custom Shop that you had to order from.

25 years huh. Me too, been a working musician for 22 years, and involved in guitar almost 25 years. Take it back to the very beginnings of ESP, I have a "Lawsuit Mirage" with the jackson headstock....in essence a Soloist copy.

I don't think that's an accurate 'take' on things either. Jackson's business plan was
1.place an order
2.wait forever
3.pay an arm and a leg
4.get a great guitar but not necessarily better than some off the shelf guitars.
In the 80s Kramer probably really put a hurt on Jackson by having all of the 'Custom Shop' components on all of their higher end models right off the shelf (ie: Seymour Duncan, Floyd Rose, Schaller, finishes). Remember ESP did most of the construction for Kramer so they learned their craft well...they took the things from KRAMER's business plan that worked and left the things that buried Kramer out of their own equation. Kramer outsold Fender and Gibson for two years in the 80s. ESP went on to:
1. use the tried and true designs
2. offer the high end components
3. offer many different models
4. make the transition to offer many fixed bridge designs with market demand
5. get many, many endorsers
6. have a custom shop that doesn't make many errors
7. get a Korean operation set up to cover another part of the market and put in strict quality control
8. get other operations in less expensive areas set up to cover the entry level guitar market that also have consistent quality .

Oh, ok....you're right, they didn't take that from Jackson.....they took it from Charvel.

Schecter is owned by ESP now. In some people's "twisted view" nothing comes close to a Jackson-however, I would have to state that of all of the 'big companies' I've heard the most complaints about Jackson quality even though my own experience would state that Gibson would have the most issues.

You missed something in my original post that wasn't stated but inferred. AMIC didn't care about righting the ship.....so yes QC sufferred then. I also said that it's not perfect yet but is getting there, things take time, and without a complete shutdown it just simply can't happen overnight.

I also never said ESP or Schecter are BAD guitars.....but are they better than Jacksons? I've played plenty an LTD and Schecter that have had issues right out of the box as well. IE-fretlift, neck issues, ground issues. Jackson has some issues that get thru too, but not enough to say that they're not as good as either of there other brands. As far as Top of the line (USA) models, I've NEVER had an issue with any Jackson. That includes my 22 year old Soloist which I orderred new and has never needed anything but strings and the occasional setup, fast forward 21 years later when I orderred my KV2T which took 3&1/2 months from order to build to my doorstep and the f'n thing is flawless. At the same time I priced out a ESP (not LTD) DV8 which would have been almost $2000 more with the same options and the wait would have been 2 &1/2 months longer.

Yours included.

Very true, I won't argue that.....best thing about opinions is that there can never be a wrong one. So I'll stick with my Jacksons and my copy will sit in it's case as it has done for years now.

[robfromthedeep]

I'm not trying to say Bullet for my Valentine are amazing but they are in the mainstream. The media is feeding bullet for my valentine every where and despite the emo vocals... they do play good music and it is putting a jackson guitar all over magazines and music channels. Can't work out too bad for Jackson...

[Erez]

In case Jackson actually does read this board, I want to officially register my vote against the new smurf headstock. Classic is just fine by me.

Still, part of the reason my next guitar is likely an ESP is because I love the look of their reverse headstock. IMHO, a reverse headstock, in order to look good to my eye, needs to be somewhat inline with the neck, like ESP or Ibanez. The Jackson reverse headstock sticks up in the air too much. Just my opinion. I know there are plenty on this board who love the Jackson reverse headstock.

Another reason I like the ESP is because the controls are simplified. I love my Jackson SL1, but I never use the tone control and I never use the middle pickup. The ESP M-II standards don't carry the tone knob. Be that as it may, having the middle pickup and the tone control didn't stop me from buying the Jackson, so it's probably better to have it there for those who want it. I'm just saying that the simplicity of the ESP M-II standards appeals to me.

There are alot of jacksons without tone control and without middle pickups if you didn't notice that by now..

[Endrik]

nothing against ESP but most of those LTDs sound like crap

[chrisolson]

nothing against ESP but most of those LTDs sound like crap

Not a very enlightened statement there. Come on, Endrik...you know better than to make baseless statements like that.

Play some of mine - you'll change your mind.