Kahler vs. Floyd style Bridge

[gitfiddler]

they seem to be back http://www.kahlerusa.com/

[toejam]

Kahler were discountinued in the late 80's because the general public didn't except them

They didn't accept them either.

[KennyF]

String tension and lack of sustain are my main problems with Kahlers.

Really??? Just as a point of reference, I'm playing through an old school "Marshall type" amp, without any effects. I haven't noticed any lack of sustain.

[Sanctuary]

String tension and lack of sustain are my main problems with Kahlers.

Well, I have three neck-through Model guitars. The sustain on the Kahlered one is measurably better than the Floyded ones (when played through no amp - just letting a note ring). My take on it: The swimming-pool route on the Floyded ones takes away a whole heap more wood (when compared to the Kahler route) and therefore affects sustain. So, I proclaim the exact opposite of your statement.

[Twisteramps]

I've owned several guitars with properly set up kahlers that wouldn't stay in tune as well as a floyd. Here's something to wrap your brains around - the strings are held in place with tension at the bridge, they aren't locked in like a floyd. There's one spot you'll lose tuning. Most of the kahlered guitars I owned had the lock behind the nut. You'll lose tuning with friction at the nut too. yes, you can lubricate the nut which will help, but it's a band aid for poor design. The cam on a Kahler IS better than the knife edges/pivot points, but when all things are considered, the Floyd just works better.

Floyds can be set up to only do drops in pitch, they don't HAVE to be floating. Witness the EVH Wolfgangs.

Either trem can be a piece of crap when it's not properly set up, but when both are, the floyd will stay in tune better. Like I mentioned in the previous thread, I have floyded guitars that are tuned ONE time after stretching the strings and then I don't have to touch them again until it's time for a string change. Never seen a Kahler that could do that.

Regarding sustain - my sustain comes from my amp. If you have an amp that's worth a crap you could get sustain from just about any guitar. Since we don't play our electric guitars acoustically, sustain at the guitar isn't that big a deal to me. Besides, I'd rather have my string go over a solid bridge saddle than a roller.

Maybe one of you Kahler fiends can pop on Youtube for us and play the attitude song or a solo that has some good whammy stuff on it and show us how well the kahler stays in tune.

Pete

[gitfiddler]

I've owned several guitars with properly set up kahlers that wouldn't stay in tune as well as a floyd. Here's something to wrap your brains around - the strings are held in place with tension at the bridge, they aren't locked in like a floyd. There's one spot you'll lose tuning. Most of the kahlered guitars I owned had the lock behind the nut. You'll lose tuning with friction at the nut too. yes, you can lubricate the nut which will help, but it's a band aid for poor design. The cam on a Kahler IS better than the knife edges/pivot points, but when all things are considered, the Floyd just works better.

Floyds can be set up to only do drops in pitch, they don't HAVE to be floating. Witness the EVH Wolfgangs.

Either trem can be a piece of crap when it's not properly set up, but when both are, the floyd will stay in tune better. Like I mentioned in the previous thread, I have floyded guitars that are tuned ONE time after stretching the strings and then I don't have to touch them again until it's time for a string change. Never seen a Kahler that could do that.

Regarding sustain - my sustain comes from my amp. If you have an amp that's worth a crap you could get sustain from just about any guitar. Since we don't play our electric guitars acoustically, sustain at the guitar isn't that big a deal to me. Besides, I'd rather have my string go over a solid bridge saddle than a roller.

Maybe one of you Kahler fiends can pop on Youtube for us and play the attitude song or a solo that has some good whammy stuff on it and show us how well the kahler stays in tune.

Pete

Word

[Sanctuary]

Never seen a Kahler that could do that.

Too bad.

[jtr]

1+ Pete

[Twisteramps]

Too bad.

Never will, either. I'd like some of what you're smoking. Feel free to show us on youtube what we're missing here. A Vai tune would be great.

Pete

[gitfiddler]

I think the synopsis is an agreement to disagree

[Twisteramps]

Yep. It's amazing how I don't believe stuff that disagrees with my 2 decades plus of owning and working on guitars. I still say you aren't going to set up a kahler'd guitar with new strings, stretch em, and then the guitar stays in tune until it's time to change strings again without having to touch the fine tuners. But I've seen floyds that will do that. Hell, I've got a Brad Gillis sig strat with a floyd that lacks fine tuners - it stays in tune like that!

Pete

[VitaminG]

String tension and lack of sustain are my main problems with Kahlers. (although this dosn't effect most posters here because it sound like the majority tune down and use so much gain it makes no difference)

I think you've just summed up the entire forum there. We're all 14 years old, playing through solid state buzz factories with our guitars tuned to Drop B.

I've found the lack of sustain in any bolt-on guitar (thanks Newc ), particularly coupled with a Kahler trem, really impacts my ability to hold a chord for 2 bars at a time when playing Foreigner ballads.

fwiw, I've never had any trouble with tuning instability on my only Kahlered guitar. But then, I've never used it as a trem either. Never even hooked a whammy bar up to it.

I prefer Floyds, most of my guitars have one, but I still like the Kahler for something different. I think it's a fine bridge. I couldn't say how well it would hold up performing Steve Vai tunes, but the same could be said of my hands.

The OP did say he didn't need a bridge for divebombs anyway. I think for gentle trem use, a bit of vibrato, the occasional slight scoop or whatever, the Kahler is fine.

[lerxstcat]

Yep. It's amazing how I don't believe stuff that disagrees with my 2 decades plus of owning and working on guitars. I still say you aren't going to set up a kahler'd guitar with new strings, stretch em, and then the guitar stays in tune until it's time to change strings again without having to touch the fine tuners. But I've seen floyds that will do that. Hell, I've got a Brad Gillis sig strat with a floyd that lacks fine tuners - it stays in tune like that!

Pete

The funny thing when this debate comes up is the hostility involoved. You have some good points, Pete. The separate nut and not locking at the bridge are weaknesses of the Kahler, for sure. Yes, it's not quite AS stable as a floyd. It still works quite well, so much better than a vintage trem that there's no comparison. You have to use the fine tuners sometimes? Well, I guess that's what they're there for, right? The Kahler has advantages when doing unison bends or if you break a string midsong too. Sure you can block the Floyd - and lode half of its utility. Now the Kahler Spyder with autolatch addressed that issue, but Floyd Rose never did.

Your experience and chops are indisputable, Pete. But when you trot out the 2+ decades thing, well that applies to both sides of the argument. I've been playing for 34 years, but that doesn't make me right about everything.

You are basically saying, crescent wrenches rule, socket wrenches suck. Well, when it's time to change your spark plugs your view might change. I think that if you had to have one guitar to cover all your bases, a guitar with a Kahler trem would be a better all-around guitar than one with a Floyd.

But, again, I have guitars with both, because I do recognize that each one has its advantages. I don't have to choose one over the other and that's great.

[Twisteramps]

The funny thing when this debate comes up is the hostility involoved. You have some good points, Pete. The separate nut and not locking at the bridge are weaknesses of the Kahler, for sure. Yes, it's not quite AS stable as a floyd. It still works quite well, so much better than a vintage trem that there's no comparison. You have to use the fine tuners sometimes? Well, I guess that's what they're there for, right? The Kahler has advantages when doing unison bends or if you break a string midsong too. Sure you can block the Floyd - and lode half of its utility. Now the Kahler Spyder with autolatch addressed that issue, but Floyd Rose never did.

Your experience and chops are indisputable, Pete. But when you trot out the 2+ decades thing, well that applies to both sides of the argument. I've been playing for 34 years, but that doesn't make me right about everything.

You are basically saying, crescent wrenches rule, socket wrenches suck. Well, when it's time to change your spark plugs your view might change. I think that if you had to have one guitar to cover all your bases, a guitar with a Kahler trem would be a better all-around guitar than one with a Floyd.

But, again, I have guitars with both, because I do recognize that each one has its advantages. I don't have to choose one over the other and that's great.

I'm saying flat out, nothing else, that a properly set up floyd WILL stay in tune better than a properly set up Kahler.

Show me a kahler that doesn't have to be touched up tuning wise even with the fine tuners after a few weeks of constant playing. I have floyded guitars that are like this. Crescent wrenches vs sockets have nothing to do with this - someone said that kahlers stay in tune as well as a floyd. I think if someone really believes this, their concept of being in tune is radically different than mine.

Pete

[lerxstcat]

Maybe their concept is that if it stays in tune through the night for a gig, then that is adequate and that more than that is a dick-measuring contest.