Who won? Import Jacksons versus ESP's LTD brand in the 2000s

[Number Of The Priest]

Remember in the 2000s when Jackson versus ESP was a hot topic?

There was contentious debate surrounding each company's more affordable guitars, Jackson with their Pro/MG/X Series, and ESP with their LTD brand.

One observation of LTD was that their guitars were equipped with high end hardware, such as real EMGs, real Duncans, real Tonepros TOM bridges, locking tuners, etc. Another was that LTD put more thought into overall cosmetic appearance with the use of their neck/headstock binding, and consideration in matching black/chrome/gold hardware where each color was appropriate for a particular guitar.

Meanwhile, the import Jacksons had "second-tier" pickups (EMG-HZ and Duncan Designed, at least until 2006-2011 when they received real EMGs and real Duncans), non-locking TOM bridges, and non-locking tuners. There were also frequent complaints that the lack of neck/headstock binding and always-chrome hardware made the import Jacksons "look cheap" (at least until 2006-2011 when they received black hardware).

I seem to recall some (Newc perhaps?) championing Jackson's approach, claiming that Jackson used quality woods and impeccable construction (because those things can't be "improved" by a user), passing on the savings to the customer who would likely swap the "cheap hardware and electronics" anyway, versus LTD's approach of attracting customers based on hardware and cosmetics. Does this claim seem valid today?

Let me just say that I enjoy guitars from both product lines from this era. In particular, the 2000s Jacksons are some of the best and most plentiful bang-for-the-buck guitars available on the used market, especially when you consider they are Japanese built. In Canada, it is not difficult to find a 2000s Japanese Jackson for around CAD$300. In Canada, it is somewhat difficult finding a 2000s LTD for even CAD$500, and they're not even Japanese (no disrespect to Korea's World Musical Instrument Co. Ltd. who makes fine guitars for LTD and others).

[Mudlark]

Not sure who won, but at present the facebook ESP/LTD page has 422,000 members to 411,000 members for Jackson's official site.
Based on that I'd say they're pretty evenly popular?

Back when I decided to upgrade to a high end guitar I was torn between a sweet trans top Horizon or a black SL2HT. Both were in the $1400 range, used. I went Jackson, but it was close.
I could be on the ESP forums today instead of here if the choice would've been different.

[xenophobe]

In the early to mid 00's, a few high end artist sig LTDs were MIJ and they had just started using WMI for a few of their higher end LTDs. By that time Esp had already won. Jackson was still heavily diluting the brand name with lower end budget models. Then some time around then Chushin Gakki was forced to close. ESP gaining even more artists with their generous offers of disposable guitars for touring and labeled bands.

Esp has recently reorganized. They closed and consolidated many of their small shops in Japan... Technical House and Craft house were closed along with a few others. Their MIJ Exhibition is now the high end custom. USA kinda adds to standard production a half step above E2 but not Japan CS level, and there are numerous foreign factories producing various grades of LTDs.

I dunno, I really like ESP but their prices are insane these days. I'm glad I own the one off ESP I want. lol

[Number Of The Priest]

Based on that I'd say they're pretty evenly popular?

I feel there is way less animosity from both camps these days. Perhaps everybody is more mature and open-minded this decade than during the previous. I like it. We can respect and admire products and brands more objectively.

In the early to mid 00's, a few high end artist sig LTDs were MIJ

I didn't discover this until a couple months ago when I saw a Japanese-made LTD Mirage listed locally for CAD$350 (US$272.66) with case. For that price, it's way lower than 99% of every LTD 1000 Deluxe guitar I've seen listed since I started keeping track of Jackson, Charvel, ESP, and Ibanez prices last year. (It actually resurfaced again: https://www.kijiji.ca/v-guitar/gatin...ationFlag=true). Are Japanese LTDs particularly desirable versus Japanese-made ESPs, or even Korean-made LTDs?

Jackson was still heavily diluting the brand name with lower end budget models. Then some time around then Chushin Gakki was forced to close.

If my history is correct, we know Chushin Gakki operated from 1986-2011. During this run, we know they made a wide array of guitars. This same factory that made the legendary Jackson Professional Pros of the early 1990s also made the somewhat basic, budget-minded Jackson X Series of the 2000s. As mentioned in my OP, I don't think I recall seeing any/many complaints about the quality of woods and construction, but I can assume the corners were cut when it came to hardware. So help me understand something here. Am I right to assume that Jackson basically instructed Chushin Gakki to continually dilute the brand (by using poorer hardware/electronics and fewer aesthetic considerations) after the Professional Pros supposedly cut into the sale of USA Jacksons?

[Nightbat]

When it comes to overall success at the end of the Hotrodded guitar Era, it kinda ends up like this
Ibanez <-ESP <-Jackson

Basically the amount of endorsees contributed to the overall success of the brands, with Ibanez leading the pack, but ESP managed to snag a few big names
Jackson OTOH let it's promoters willow away, leaving just a few "big names" on their roster, with which they can't live on their legacy forever

[VitaminG]

If my history is correct, we know Chushin Gakki operated from 1986-2011. During this run, we know they made a wide array of guitars. This same factory that made the legendary Jackson Professional Pros of the early 1990s also made the somewhat basic, budget-minded Jackson X Series of the 2000s. As mentioned in my OP, I don't think I recall seeing any/many complaints about the quality of woods and construction, but I can assume the corners were cut when it came to hardware. So help me understand something here. Am I right to assume that Jackson basically instructed Chushin Gakki to continually dilute the brand (by using poorer hardware/electronics and fewer aesthetic considerations) after the Professional Pros supposedly cut into the sale of USA Jacksons?

I don't think it was a continual dilution. They reduced some of the niceties on the Japanese guitars in the early-mid90s to differentiate from the US guitars. Takeuchi trems instead of Schallers. Pickups built to the same specs but made in the Japanese factory rather imported from the US. Fewer models with neck binding. Things like that. Still really good guitars though.

They eventually started building the entry level guitars in Indonesia and then India. That was way later though, not in response to the Japanese guitars cutting into US sales. They generally weren't bad guitars but really cheaped out on hardware & electronics. It's funny - the DX10s & DX10Ds of that era seem to be becoming a thing with people new to the brand now.

The X/MG/Pro series continued to be built in Japan and eventually were upgraded with real EMGs & Duncans & better hardware. So there was apparently enough distinction between the US & Japanese lines by then that they could put offer better appointments. Of course, they were kind of forced to since LTD & Schecter already were. I thought they actually introduced some nice stuff during this period, like the carved top on the DKMG, the new 3-a-side headstock, SLSMG, Wolbers sig, Demmelition V, Morton Dominion. They also resisted the temptation to bling out bodies with MOP like Schecter & LTD were doing. At least, until the Chinese Charvel Desolation series

[xenophobe]

MIJ LTDs may command a slight premium over LTD imports from other countries, but I don't think too many people actually care. They're on par with WMI Korea for the most part. ESP logo'd guitars are far more desirable.

Chushin Gakki wasn't responsible for the dilution of the brand. MIC started production of Desolations before the Japanese CJ factory went bankrupt and closed... by a few months. Fender basically screwed the Japanese factory. One day they were at full capacity, then another day they had no work. Fender did not want to renegotiate prices and CG couldn't afford to build them at that price anymore, so they stopped getting orders.

[Musician78]

Not sure who won, but at present the facebook ESP/LTD page has 422,000 members to 411,000 members for Jackson's official site.
Based on that I'd say they're pretty evenly popular?

What actually happened was ESP won the popular vote but Jackson took the electoral college, giving them the win.

[guitarguy2237]

I will say that the brand new LTD guitars are absolutely excellent for the money. When I was looking for a new axe after this last deployment I played one of the H/S/S super strats they make and was blown away by how good the stock pickups sounded. Ended up with a used pro series soloist, but I was still impressed nonetheless. Better than any of the new Ibanez offerings I played.