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  • #76
    Re: Your take on Japanese Jacksons

    Economics 101 Class......... please pull up a chair boys:

    In the beginning(1986), Grover Jackson and company went to Japan, spent tons of money, setup a shop and taught the Japanese how to build a guitar to the quality of the USA product. Grover spent a lot of time there making sure they built the guitars correctly.

    From 1986 to 1993, those Japanese guitars were EXPENSIVE!!! In 1989, when you walked out the door with a flametop Charvel Model 475 Special and case, your wallet was about $800 lighter if you got a good deal. Let's time warp to 2003...........

    You call up Musicians Friend, Easton Guitars or whoever and order up a DK-2(today's equivelent of the 475) and get it shipped to your door for $400. Let's take a look here:

    1989 475 - $800
    2003 DK-2 - $400

    Do you see a problem???

    Let's then throw INFLATION into the equation. At a standard 3% INFLATION per year, you're looking at a 42% price increase from 1989 to 2003. Let's adjust a 1989 Charvel 475 for inflation:

    1989 475 - $800
    2003 475 adj. for inflation - $1136
    2003 DK-2 - $400

    Are you beginning to see why us old timers talk about how good the early Japanese Charvels were and how they were every bit as good as the USA guitars? Do you see why we think the newer Japanese Models don't hold a candle to the early stuff?

    The current Japanese Jackson guitars are "good" guitars. They aren't great, they aren't any better than Dean, Ibanez, ESP, Schecter, etc's. stuff from Japan or Korea. It's all economics. The newer Japanese Jacksons are made out of cheap wood, cheap necks, cheap hardware, cheap inlays, cheap pickups, cheap trems, cheap.. cheap.. cheap. Even the fretwork is miles and miles behind what was being done in 86-93. It's pure ecomonics. You can't build a USA quality guitar and sell it for $400. Nobody can, nowhere, no how.

    Let's look at Floyd Rose trems. Both Jackson USA and Charvel/Jackson Japan used the same Made in Germany Schaller Floyd in 1989-1993. In 1994, Jackson Japan went to the 1st version JT580 trem. It had a symetrically square(like an OFR) baseplate and locking screws in the BACK(like an OFR). That JT580 was a pretty decent trem made out of good metal. Over the years, the JT580 was cheapened out 4 DIFFERENT TIMES and made into a pot metal piece of crap with horrible lock screws and a trem bar the will not stay in place. The current JT-580LP's aren't even being made in Japan anymore.

    If you want an excellent Japanese C/J, look for a mildly used 87-93 Charvel or Jackson Pro. I personally think the 89-93 stuff is the best since they used the Schaller Floyds.

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    • #77
      Re: Your take on Japanese Jacksons

      Originally posted by diospada:
      I know ESP is a Japanese company, but Ibanez is also Japanese??? Is that true???
      <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To my knowledge - Ibanez is Japanese in origin but a lot of their less expensive guitars are made in Korean or Indonesia. Their top of the line stuff (the "Prestige" line) is Japanese. Ask any Ibanez fan and they'll tell you that the Japanese Ibanez's are MUCH better than the others. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong.

      I haven't had time to read this whole thread but thanks for anyone participating in this discussion. This is really interesting shit.

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      • #78
        Re: Your take on Japanese Jacksons

        i agree with gregs last post. Thus I am selling my jackson professional Cheap Cheap Cheap !!.. Was going to practice fret work and other stuff but too damn lazy...

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: Your take on Japanese Jacksons

          I sorta see where Greg is comming from.

          I think it's been over simplified.

          Speaking of my experience only,

          General build quality of the early Model series guitars and the Professional series seems the equal of your typical USA Select guitar for the most part, or near equal.

          That said, I own a couple of the current crop of imports. DK2 and DXMG. They are both excellent.

          Personally I rank the DXMG right up with my Model 2 and DK-1 in terms of playability and feel, my Model 6 in terms of fit and finish.

          Yes, they used cheaper pots and MOTO inlays, and I know the 580LP is less expensive than the OFR on the DK1.

          However the EMG-HZ pups are certainly better sounding than the Jackson pups on my Model series and at least the equal of the Duncans in my DK1 or SL1.

          I guess I'm trying to say I can see where they've cut corners on my DXMG.. but none of the corners cut affect my enjoyment of the guitar, in fact despite this it's actually my favorite.

          Does this mean it's actually superior???

          I guess it goes to show ya, beauty IS in the eye (or ear) of the beholder.

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: Your take on Japanese Jacksons

            Originally posted by Greg Crowe:
            Economics 101 Class......... please pull up a chair boys:

            In the beginning(1986), Grover Jackson and company went to Japan, spent tons of money, setup a shop and taught the Japanese how to build a guitar to the quality of the USA product. Grover spent a lot of time there making sure they built the guitars correctly.

            From 1986 to 1993, those Japanese guitars were EXPENSIVE!!! In 1989, when you walked out the door with a flametop Charvel Model 475 Special and case, your wallet was about $800 lighter if you got a good deal. Let's time warp to 2003...........

            You call up Musicians Friend, Easton Guitars or whoever and order up a DK-2(today's equivelent of the 475) and get it shipped to your door for $400. Let's take a look here:

            1989 475 - $800
            2003 DK-2 - $400

            Do you see a problem???

            Let's then throw INFLATION into the equation. At a standard 3% INFLATION per year, you're looking at a 42% price increase from 1989 to 2003. Let's adjust a 1989 Charvel 475 for inflation:

            1989 475 - $800
            2003 475 adj. for inflation - $1136
            2003 DK-2 - $400

            Are you beginning to see why us old timers talk about how good the early Japanese Charvels were and how they were every bit as good as the USA guitars? Do you see why we think the newer Japanese Models don't hold a candle to the early stuff?

            The current Japanese Jackson guitars are "good" guitars. They aren't great, they aren't any better than Dean, Ibanez, ESP, Schecter, etc's. stuff from Japan or Korea. It's all economics. The newer Japanese Jacksons are made out of cheap wood, cheap necks, cheap hardware, cheap inlays, cheap pickups, cheap trems, cheap.. cheap.. cheap. Even the fretwork is miles and miles behind what was being done in 86-93. It's pure ecomonics. You can't build a USA quality guitar and sell it for $400. Nobody can, nowhere, no how.

            Let's look at Floyd Rose trems. Both Jackson USA and Charvel/Jackson Japan used the same Made in Germany Schaller Floyd in 1989-1993. In 1994, Jackson Japan went to the 1st version JT580 trem. It had a symetrically square(like an OFR) baseplate and locking screws in the BACK(like an OFR). That JT580 was a pretty decent trem made out of good metal. Over the years, the JT580 was cheapened out 4 DIFFERENT TIMES and made into a pot metal piece of crap with horrible lock screws and a trem bar the will not stay in place. The current JT-580LP's aren't even being made in Japan anymore.

            If you want an excellent Japanese C/J, look for a mildly used 87-93 Charvel or Jackson Pro. I personally think the 89-93 stuff is the best since they used the Schaller Floyds.
            <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not going to debate your point but I think you are being a bit simplistic.
            Although you are taking account for inflation you are not offseting that with the reduced cost of manufacture due to automation and economies of scale that guys like MF and WallMart practice. The idea that it becomes cheaper when you buy in bulk and mass produce the product is an old fact of manufacturing.

            The debate about one being better than another is like saying Superman can kick the Hulk's ass. It's completely subjetive due to the mystique that seems to surround certian Guitar eras. (ie Pre Norlin Giby's, Pre CBS Fenders, And now Pre Fender J/C)

            Look either way you are starting with a fairly good base a nice straight neck in Maple, an Alder body with no warps or mistakes in the workmanship.
            If the hardware is less that the best, it can be swaped, as for the fretwork, I have seen no sharp ends, no mistakes that affect the tone or action. As for the inlays, MOTO is an industry standard since the 1950's and has no affect on tone or playability.

            There's my .02.
            Peace.
            Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day, set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: Your take on Japanese Jacksons

              VERY WELL SAID! retro_6

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: Your take on Japanese Jacksons

                Originally posted by Black Mariah:
                I've got to agree with retro_6 a bit. I remember last year just a couple of months after I started working at Jackson there was a thread about Jackson being run by a Japanese company. I can't recall names or exact quotes, but I do remember comments like "How do you like having your checks signed by some Japanese guy?" Well, I didn't care then, still don't care, and my checks were signed by a dude named Jack Norman, thanks a lot. Yes, a lot of the disdain for imports around here IS racism, plain and simple.
                <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I totally agree. I sold Nissans for several years (thank God that phase of my life is over), and I got really tired of the anti-import argument. I would have rednecks say things like "I only buy American," then they would get back in their Ford F-Series truck which was made in Canada, while practically every Nissan on the road is made in Symrna, Tennessee. I had this argument with a hard-headed friend at my last job who would say things like, "yeah, but THE MONEY goes to Japan." Excuse me, but *MY* money went to me, not to mention the whole sub-economy involving sales, parts, service, etc...

                You're right about the racism. It's just like Wal-Mart advertising that they make every effort to buy "American-made products when possible." It's an easy copout. Why? Because some items are simply not made in America. Any computer shop can advertise that they "make every effort to sell American-made products," knowing full well that there isn't a single computer component made here (at least not that I'm aware of). I find it a bit hypocritical that the same people who insist on "American made" are the same people who also demand quality, affordable products which only the economies of lesser developed countries can support.
                Member - National Sarcasm Society

                "Oh, sure. Like we need your support."

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: Your take on Japanese Jacksons

                  the new/newer Japan guitars are light years better than Ibeenhad's or any korean guitars and anywhere else greg they don't sell for 400 bucks you guys are lucky you get that cause the rest of the world doesn't and I bet the guys who sells em for 400 buck make sqat shit on em 20 bucks a guitar at the most maybe 100 for some but those guys rely on huge numbers of sales to make a profit , yes the jt 580 has cheapened in the last while but try em out next to esp ibanez schecter ect ect ect in the same price range and there is no comparison at all , and the bodys are the same as the old stuff and sound just as nice and the necks are still the same and cut in the same way and look just as nice as any old charvel and play as nice to , come on guys you sound like a bunch of old men my car is better than yours or they don't make em like that anymore ... come on , also cheap wood ? I have never heard of that before and it looks and feels like the same stuff japan jacksons have always used , cheap wood is just fucking a lame excuse to cut down man , that is just dumb , also most of the new Japan jacksons are made out of alder witch is a better wood than basswood witch they used on most of the older pro line guitars , but yes the trem is not as nice as it use to be thats forsure the Jackson schaller trems ruled and still do. //Steve

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Your take on Japanese Jacksons

                    I bought a new JS-30 trans black nice flame top(thin veneer)and was quite suprised to find the neck feels close to the old 90s professional neck just a hair thicker than my DR5.The body wood IS alder.The pickups were OK but I swaped them out for SD custom 5 and JB the tone is tremendous.the JT-580 works flawlessly.Fit and finish is top notch not a blemish anywhere.All for 235.00 minus the pickups of course.You cant beat the price and this guitar is just as solid as my model series guitars.
                    Really? well screw Mark Twain.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: Your take on Japanese Jacksons

                      I've been obsessed with the SLSMG guitar in violin brown for ahile now, Wonder how it would look with gold hardwares??

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: Your take on Japanese Jacksons

                        For the past two years, all I've played are imports, mostly DK2s with the exception of one Charvel Traditional I owned briefly. For various reasons, I bought a DR3, a KV3, 2 DXMGs, 2 of the DK2 HRFs, 2 of the DK2S guitars (the ones I'm currently playing) ... I'm seeing a pattern here: I like things in twos.

                        Anyway, about 4 years ago, I came into a little money, and I bought a quilted KE2T, a hot rod flames Y2KV, two SL1s (there's 2 again), and a snakeskin XTRR (with a painted neck!). I enjoyed them all but fell into financial trouble and sold them all on eBay. Now I'm not so free with my money, but the lesson I learned is that the current Jackson Professional series is every bit as good as the USA series. Granted, you can't get Y2KVs, XTRRs, and fully-bound quilted top Kellys as Professional models, but I find that the DK2/DXMG is every bit as good as my SL1s were.

                        I'm one of those tone deaf people, too, who can't really notice that much difference in Duncan Designed pups and USA SDs. I mean, when the volume is cranked on the amp, it's really difficult to notice any difference. When I had my two HRF DK2s, I swapped the bridge pup in one of them with a SD Distortion, but I switched guitars during practice and during live performance all the time. Even though the SD Distortion is hotter, there just wasn't that much difference between it and the HB102 (or is it the 103?) at high volumes.

                        And then there's the matter of the JT580LP versus the OFR. I swapped out the 580 in one of my DXMGs with an OFR ... at the time, I owned the XTRR and put the XTRRs OFR in my DXMG (LMNOP) so I could replace the black hardware on my XTRR with gold hardware. I noticed little difference (if any) in the tone or playability of the DXMG when it had an OFR in it. And after a couple of years of playing exclusively USA Jacksons (most with Floyds) and then being forced to use the JT580LP exclusively, I just don't feel there's that much of a difference. Out of all the 580s I've owned (including the satin chrome ones on the DR3 and the KV3), all have returned to 0, stayed in tune, and I've never broken a string on a Jackson import. I abuse the hell out of my trems. I go all the way down and up during live shows. I grab the bar and pick up the whole guitar for effect. I do dive bombs several times during a live performance and rarely have to check my tuning. I mean, if the JT580LP can handle all that, then I don't see much advantage to owning an OFR. Granted, if I ever need to replace my 580, I'll probably do so with an OFR or maybe one of the more premium licensed trems like the ones from Carvin. But until it breaks, it is a damn decent trem as far as I'm concerned.

                        Hardware-wise, I've got no complaints. I do like the smaller knobs on the USA Jacksons ... and I'm sure they use better pots and switches, but top quality pots and switches are dirt cheap at places like Warmoth, so if one ever goes out, they're easy to replace. Wood quality is good. The necks feel great. I don't care about things like MOP inlays or logo and quartersawn maple ... so long as the neck's straight and the inlays are there, I'm happy.

                        Unless you want to play a really tricked out guitar with an amazing graphic (and some of the USA graphics are now available on the imports) and other features you just can't get on an import, stick with the imports. If I decided to play a Rhoads, I'd probably go with a USA model, because they look better with neck-thru construction and a painted neck, but I think most people here agree that the DK2s are superior imports since they look so much like the pre-EMG DK1s, and I'm sure they feel very similar.

                        Anyway, as everyone keeps saying, that's my $.02.

                        --Dan
                        My YouTube Videos | My SoundCloud Page

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                        • #87
                          Re: Your take on Japanese Jacksons

                          amen man your not tone deaf the 103's were suppose to sound like the duncan distortion , it's all in peoples head that the usa made stuff is better and that any other country can't make products better or as good as the states , thats just bull shit ! the duncan designed series are just as good as duncans just the manufacturing is cheaper thats all . maybe I am just the trift store guy or something but spending hundreds or thousands more cause it says made in the usa is nothing but retarded , up here in Canada the usa jacksons are priced 3 times what they acually cost in reality , for instance any usa Jackson up here costs 2500 to 3000 the list cost on the guitars is always around 1100 or so and the manufacturing cost is probably 600 or 700 bucks , no they got to figure something out about this cause thats just fucking stupid and the consumer just always getts fucking completely hosed on this shit ... oh yeah in canada slap on another 170 [for strat] to 250 [for v and kelly shapes] for the case ! //Steve

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                          • #88
                            Re: Your take on Japanese Jacksons

                            I'm quite satisfied with my Japanese stuff - actually I was quite surprised how good the DD in my DK2 sounded. I replaced it with an X2N, and to be honest, I wouldn't say the difference is worth a new X2N's price. Same thing with the JT580LP. I put a Schaller on the DK2 because I could get it cheap, and it's not exactly a difference like light and day (edit - Yeah right. Night and day would be more appropriate I guess [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] ). In fact, the only noticeable difference is that bent notes sustain a little better, and it feels a little smoother. Yes, the Schaller weighs a ton and is built like a fucking tank whereas the 580 feels like a toy, but I honestly don't hear that many differences. Maybe it'll die sooner than a real Floyd, but until that happens, it surely delivers.
                            The EMG HZs in my WRMG are not my cup of tea, though. Prefer the real deal, so guess what's going in there. I'll keep the Afterburner though, should be fun boosting that 81 into "total fucking mayhem"-mode [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

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                            • #89
                              Re: Your take on Japanese Jacksons

                              Originally posted by Baum83:
                              I'm quite satisfied with my Japanese stuff - actually I was quite surprised how good the DD in my DK2 sounded. I replaced it with an X2N, and to be honest, I wouldn't say the difference is worth a new X2N's price. Same thing with the JT580LP. I put a Schaller on the DK2 because I could get it cheap, and it's not exactly a difference like light and day (edit - Yeah right. Night and day would be more appropriate I guess [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] ). In fact, the only noticeable difference is that bent notes sustain a little better, and it feels a little smoother. Yes, the Schaller weighs a ton and is built like a fucking tank whereas the 580 feels like a toy, but I honestly don't hear that many differences. Maybe it'll die sooner than a real Floyd, but until that happens, it surely delivers.
                              The EMG HZs in my WRMG are not my cup of tea, though. Prefer the real deal, so guess what's going in there. I'll keep the Afterburner though, should be fun boosting that 81 into "total fucking mayhem"-mode [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
                              <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">a guy who use to bring his axe in for repairs did that [put a 81 in the bridge position of his wrmg] and when we tryed it [the afterburner] on a clean amp it made it sound like a jcm 800 with the gain cranked to 10 [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] it was pretty fun //Steve

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                              • #90
                                Re: Your take on Japanese Jacksons

                                Duncan Designed? Hell, I love the sound of the J90C in my Model 2!

                                [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
                                Member - National Sarcasm Society

                                "Oh, sure. Like we need your support."

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